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Tenants moving out queries
Pendrive
Posts: 78 Forumite
I have a fully-managed property, and the tenants gave notice that they would vacate this on a particular date - a Friday.
However, when I contacted the letting agents about collecting the keys on the Saturday, they informed me that they would be carrying out the check out only on the following Monday and Tuesday, and wanted access after that in case of any disputes in regard to the deposit. Only then would they 'hand back' my property.
I planned to go in on Saturday, have the locks changed (the tenants have been there for four years and have family close by), and then will be away for work for a week.
On telling the letting agents I wanted my property back once the tenancy had finished, they initially told me that the tenants were 'effectively moving out over the weekend' since they could stay in the property until midnight at the end of the Friday, and therefore a checkout (which is carried out by the agents themselves) couldn't be carried out before the following Monday or Tuesday, since the agents don't do them over weekends or after office hours.
When I pointed out that the tenants were moving out on the day before the weekend, as chosen by themselves; and not over the weekend, I was again told they could stay in the property until midnight. This is something I don't dispute; but it brings up a few questions I would be interested to hear thoughts on.
1 - the check out seems to be being carried out too late. What if the tenants simply claim they left the property in perfect condition and something must have happened in the three or four days between the end of their notice period and the check out? Would this hold up in any dispute process?
2 - what is the situation with the keys being handed back? Do the tenants have to do this prior to midnight, and prove that they have done so? Agents have said nothing about when this would happen, but I assume the tenants do have to do this by the deadline?
3 - can the letting agent refuse to hand over the keys to myself on the Saturday at any point? Can they impose 'terms' (as they tell me) that if I enter the property myself before they have 'handed it back to me', I will have no claim at all against the tenants' deposit in the case of any damage? Do they in fact have any legal jurisdiction over the property once the agreement has terminated?
I don't know why agents and tenants haven't organized moving out including check out (the tenants are also supposed to have the property professionally cleaned before moving out, according to their AST) at some point on the final day of the tenancy, particularly as the tenants chose the date themselves. I guess they do have the right to be there until midnight if they really want to be; but presumably they and the agents too have obligations they nonetheless need to fulfil; even if the tenants choose to move out at midnight?
However, when I contacted the letting agents about collecting the keys on the Saturday, they informed me that they would be carrying out the check out only on the following Monday and Tuesday, and wanted access after that in case of any disputes in regard to the deposit. Only then would they 'hand back' my property.
I planned to go in on Saturday, have the locks changed (the tenants have been there for four years and have family close by), and then will be away for work for a week.
On telling the letting agents I wanted my property back once the tenancy had finished, they initially told me that the tenants were 'effectively moving out over the weekend' since they could stay in the property until midnight at the end of the Friday, and therefore a checkout (which is carried out by the agents themselves) couldn't be carried out before the following Monday or Tuesday, since the agents don't do them over weekends or after office hours.
When I pointed out that the tenants were moving out on the day before the weekend, as chosen by themselves; and not over the weekend, I was again told they could stay in the property until midnight. This is something I don't dispute; but it brings up a few questions I would be interested to hear thoughts on.
1 - the check out seems to be being carried out too late. What if the tenants simply claim they left the property in perfect condition and something must have happened in the three or four days between the end of their notice period and the check out? Would this hold up in any dispute process?
2 - what is the situation with the keys being handed back? Do the tenants have to do this prior to midnight, and prove that they have done so? Agents have said nothing about when this would happen, but I assume the tenants do have to do this by the deadline?
3 - can the letting agent refuse to hand over the keys to myself on the Saturday at any point? Can they impose 'terms' (as they tell me) that if I enter the property myself before they have 'handed it back to me', I will have no claim at all against the tenants' deposit in the case of any damage? Do they in fact have any legal jurisdiction over the property once the agreement has terminated?
I don't know why agents and tenants haven't organized moving out including check out (the tenants are also supposed to have the property professionally cleaned before moving out, according to their AST) at some point on the final day of the tenancy, particularly as the tenants chose the date themselves. I guess they do have the right to be there until midnight if they really want to be; but presumably they and the agents too have obligations they nonetheless need to fulfil; even if the tenants choose to move out at midnight?
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Comments
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What you can do when the tenants have left and the agents have finally given you the keys is to find a new and hopefully better agent and tell the old agent why.0
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You cannot force the tenants to have the property 'professionally' cleaned, whatever the AST says. As long as it is as clean as at the start, the tenants are fine. If they want their mum to help them do that, they can.I have a fully-managed property, and the tenants gave notice that they would vacate this on a particular date - a Friday.
However, when I contacted the letting agents about collecting the keys on the Saturday, they informed me that they would be carrying out the check out only on the following Monday and Tuesday, and wanted access after that in case of any disputes in regard to the deposit. Only then would they 'hand back' my property.
The agents work for you.
So you can instruct them what to do and when.
For the avoidance of doubt, if you want to instruct them contrary to their recomended course of action, do it in writing.
I planned to go in on Saturday, have the locks changed (the tenants have been there for four years and have family close by), and then will be away for work for a week.
So do that. Then give the agent the new keys to arrange the inspection.
Be aware that may compromise the inspection as any damage noted might have been done by you.
On telling the letting agents I wanted my property back once the tenancy had finished, they initially told me that the tenants were 'effectively moving out over the weekend' since they could stay in the property until midnight at the end of the Friday, and therefore a checkout (which is carried out by the agents themselves) couldn't be carried out before the following Monday or Tuesday, since the agents don't do them over weekends or after office hours.
Rubbish. If the tenancy ends on Friday, the tenants must leave on Friday and return the keys on Friday. If necessary they can put the keys through the agent's door on Friday night.
The inspection can be done later.
When I pointed out that the tenants were moving out on the day before the weekend, as chosen by themselves; and not over the weekend, I was again told they could stay in the property until midnight. This is something I don't dispute; but it brings up a few questions I would be interested to hear thoughts on.
1 - the check out seems to be being carried out too late. What if the tenants simply claim they left the property in perfect condition and something must have happened in the three or four days between the end of their notice period and the check out? Would this hold up in any dispute process?
Check out inspections do not necessarily happen the same/next day. Especially at a weekend.
Yes, if there is a significant gap between end of tenancy and inspection, it can be used to raise issues about when damage was caused, but a few days is usual.
2 - what is the situation with the keys being handed back? Do the tenants have to do this prior to midnight, and prove that they have done so? Agents have said nothing about when this would happen, but I assume the tenants do have to do this by the deadline?
Yes
3 - can the letting agent refuse to hand over the keys to myself on the Saturday at any point?
No. They are your keys. Though I'd have expected you to have a copy anyway......!
Can they impose 'terms' (as they tell me) that if I enter the property myself before they have 'handed it back to me', I will have no claim at all against the tenants' deposit in the case of any damage? Do they in fact have any legal jurisdiction over the property once the agreement has terminated?
They could claim to have 'handed back' the property to you, yes. You could ten do your own inspection, or employ a professional (The AIIC (Association of Independant Inventory Clerks) )
I don't know why agents and tenants haven't organized moving out including check out (the tenants are also supposed to have the property professionally cleaned before moving out, according to their AST) at some point on the final day of the tenancy, particularly as the tenants chose the date themselves. I guess they do have the right to be there until midnight if they really want to be; but presumably they and the agents too have obligations they nonetheless need to fulfil; even if the tenants choose to move out at midnight?
They can do what they like up to midnight Friday, then vacate and return the keys.0 -
Seconded. For a fully-managed service, the agents seem to making a meal of the process. Out of interest, what % do they charge as fees?What you can do when the tenants have left and the agents have finally given you the keys is to find a new and hopefully better agent and tell the old agent why.0
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Hello Pendrive
If the tenant Has moved out of there own free will and LA refuses to give you keys back to the property.
Get the locks changed to your property and tell LA to get stuffed.
LA are more than likely trying to rip you or tenant or both off for more money.
Good luck ....
....Advice given on Assured and Regulated Tenancy, Further advice should always be sought from a Solicitor....0 -
Hi - many thanks for the responses - much-appreciated :-)
On agents - I'm not re-letting the property - it's been too much hassle - like this :-) I certainly wouldn't be sticking with same agent if I did, nor will be re commending them to anyone.
In terms of telling them what I want - done that. They're ignoring it and sticking with what they've decided. I do worry they won't have a problem with tenants going back in without me knowing, ifcthey feel there's reason to. I don't think they are bothered about getting the keys back before sometime on Saturday morning.
In terms of changing locks or entering property on Saturday, they have simply said if I do that before they've done a checkout I will void any claim against the deposit.
I may look into getting an independent agent to do a checkout, get the keys from them on Sat, and tell them to get stuffed.0 -
Of course it will not void any claim. There is an outside chance it would provide the tenants with an arguement to present to the arbitrator in a dispute, assuming they even knew. But how would the tenants know you'd been in....?...
In terms of changing locks or entering property on Saturday, they have simply said if I do that before they've done a checkout I will void any claim against the deposit.
And if you took photos which could be matched against the inspection photos that would show the condition was unchanged.0 -
Why are you paying a letting agent to walk all over you?0
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The agents might be crap at clear and polite phone conversation but they haven't done anything wrong here - I think you have just managed to get someone who has poor customer skills. Everything they indicated here is 100% standard - the "effectively moving out over the weekend" is not standard, but they're basically telling you in a confusing way that they don't work on the weekend so the apartment is effectively empty as of Monday morning (I'm quite sure the tenant would be out on the Friday and return the keys in time).
The agent's job is to manage the property in the best way. What they've tried to do here follows this. They've pointed out that you going in on the Saturday, before the inspection, isn't best practice in regards to that inspection, and that if you change those locks you might compromise it. Of course you can do as you please (and advise them, since they work for you) but keep in mind that even if this one was a jerk on the phone, they're trying to do the right thing by you.0 -
they're trying to do the right thing by you.
Really doesn't sound like the LA are trying to do the right thing by the LL. Sounds to me like they are trying to tell the LL its perfectly ok to allow the tenant access to the property after the tenancy has ended because they can't be bothered to take the keys after midnight on Friday, when the tenancy has ended (like on the Saturday).
Personally, I think it would be worth getting an independent inspection done as the OP has suggested. LA doesn't seem to be trustworthy.
But it also might be worthwhile contacting the tenants in a friendly manner and seeing if an earlier inspection can be arranged/if key handing over can be arranged etc, they may not be the problem, it may be the agency making things awkward.
I know when my private tenancy ended my previously awful LL was surprisingly helpful and was definitely present as we moved out but not in a nasty way. I know the same can't be said of all situations. He was obviously eager to get in the door to check the state of the now empty property but as it was well cleaned that wasn't a problem (cleaned by me). We both just wanted to get the tenancy ended in as civilised way as possible. It doesn't have to be a 'guns at dawn situation', even if the tenancy wasn't a good one.0 -
I have no idea if the tenant would be out on Friday and returning the keys in time, though I strongly suspect from the conversations with the LA that the tenants have been told it's fine to return the keys over the weekend if needed.The agents might be crap at clear and polite phone conversation but they haven't done anything wrong here - I think you have just managed to get someone who has poor customer skills. Everything they indicated here is 100% standard - the "effectively moving out over the weekend" is not standard, but they're basically telling you in a confusing way that they don't work on the weekend so the apartment is effectively empty as of Monday morning (I'm quite sure the tenant would be out on the Friday and return the keys in time).
The apartment surely isn't 'effectively empty as of Monday morning' if the tenants have given notice to leave on the Friday. It has to be empty from Saturday, which is what I've planned for on the basis of that information.
I'm afraid I don't feel for a moment that the agents are 'trying to do the right thing by me' - they just aren't very competent and don't seem to think that it matters if a tenancy agreement notice period which is supposed to finish at the end of a Friday spills over into the weekend.deannatrois wrote: »Really doesn't sound like the LA are trying to do the right thing by the LL. Sounds to me like they are trying to tell the LL its perfectly ok to allow the tenant access to the property after the tenancy has ended because they can't be bothered to take the keys after midnight on Friday, when the tenancy has ended (like on the Saturday).
Yes - I agree with this.
Personally, I think it would be worth getting an independent inspection done as the OP has suggested. LA doesn't seem to be trustworthy. I am also beginning to worry about their trustworthiness in doing this now.
But it also might be worthwhile contacting the tenants in a friendly manner and seeing if an earlier inspection can be arranged/if key handing over can be arranged etc, they may not be the problem, it may be the agency making things awkward.
I know when my private tenancy ended my previously awful LL was surprisingly helpful and was definitely present as we moved out but not in a nasty way. I know the same can't be said of all situations. He was obviously eager to get in the door to check the state of the now empty property but as it was well cleaned that wasn't a problem (cleaned by me). We both just wanted to get the tenancy ended in as civilised way as possible. It doesn't have to be a 'guns at dawn situation', even if the tenancy wasn't a good one.
Thanks - I don't want to become involved with the tenants particularly, though. I don't actually suspect there would be a particular problem with the way the property is left - but I suspect the tenants might need more time to do it; and perhaps should have given notice for a day or two later. Unfortunately I need the property back on the Saturday as I'll be away for some time after that, and planned that on the basis of the notice period I was given. Whether the LA told them that if they gave notice for Friday they would effectively have a weekend to finish off if needed, I don't know - the LA didn't unfortunately tell me anything - I could have addressed this earlier if so; and possibly looked into planning things differently myself.
The issue has come up now because I asked about picking the keys up on Saturday morning, assuming tenants would have moved out with check out carried out when they did so, by then; given that the notice was given and date chosen by themselves. Or that the checkout would be carried out on the Saturday morning. Part of the response, from what sounded to be a young and rather inexperienced lady on the phone, was that 'the tenants will effectively be moving over the weekend'; and it rather sounded to me as if the tenants may have been told that.
onwards&upwards wrote: »Why are you paying a letting agent to walk all over you?
What would you suggest I do in the situation?0
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