Voltage recorder

Heedtheadvice

I agree with recent posts. You need expert assistance on site. It is difficult if not impossible to diagnose remotely on a forum.


But we have made some progress. From what you have written (and not written) we can conclude that

the appartments have been unaffected so the problem is just with the lift
Most unlikely that the problemn is with the 3 phase supply - unless the developer has been working on it!!
Similarly (assumption the battery backup provides full power in case of mains failure) it is a lift problem and not a supply problem (the lift being the mechanism, motor(s) control gear.)
Rails can have caused the problem.
The problem is causing it to trip out. You have not said what trips out (rcd, mcb in consumer unit, or part of control circuit). As you have written that cycling the power off and then back on fixes the problem then that implies an automatic trip such as athermal or overload trip built into the lift.


Conclusion you need an engineer to do full diagnotic check and repair. Probably best from the manufacturer. Explain to them the whole problem....it is only two and a half years old and lifts should be high reliability items. I assume it has passed all required tests? If problems are found get a written report to ensure you know the cause and progress appropriately!



If the 'local' engineer cannot resolve then ensure it is a new one who is either more competent or more thorough but bear in mind intermittant problems are a lot harder to find.


It may well cost you a lot more but consider the implications. You have and are responsible as a landlord! If no fault is found then it is time to get the engineer to install monitoring, supply and load! Not something you should do yourself, especially with 3 phase supplies and the 450v involved!!!!

J_B

My comments below ....

Heedtheadvice wrote: »

I agree with recent posts. You need expert assistance on site. It is difficult if not impossible to diagnose remotely on a forum.
I'm not sure it will be easier to diagnose on site if it only happens every few months!

But we have made some progress. From what you have written (and not written) we can conclude that

the appartments have been unaffected so the problem is just with the lift
Most unlikely that the problemn is with the 3 phase supply - unless the developer has been working on it!!
This is a dedicated 3 phase supply - 'next door' has it's own supplies


Similarly (assumption the battery backup provides full power in case of mains failure)
I *think* that the battery simply takes the cart to the ground floor and opens the doors in the event of a mains failure


it is a lift problem and not a supply problem (the lift being the mechanism, motor(s) control gear.)
Rails can have caused the problem.
But, since these have been tightened, the problem has re-occurred.


The problem is causing it to trip out. You have not said what trips out (rcd, mcb in consumer unit, or part of control circuit).

Nothing physically 'trips out'

As you have written that cycling the power off and then back on fixes the problem then that implies an automatic trip such as athermal or overload trip built into the lift.
Sounds like it

Conclusion you need an engineer to do full diagnotic check and repair. Probably best from the manufacturer.

They are 'Doppler' ... from Athens!

Explain to them the whole problem....it is only two and a half years old and lifts should be high reliability items.

I assume it has passed all required tests?

We have a service contract with the suppliers.
We have asked them to do us a LOLER certificate, but I don't know if it has been carried out or not!


If problems are found get a written report to ensure you know the cause and progress appropriately!



If the 'local' engineer cannot resolve then ensure it is a new one who is either more competent or more thorough but bear in mind intermittant problems are a lot harder to find.


It may well cost you a lot more but consider the implications. You have and are responsible as a landlord! If no fault is found then it is time to get the engineer to install monitoring, supply and load! Not something you should do yourself, especially with 3 phase supplies and the 450v involved!!!!

Thanks

Heedtheadvice

Ok. Some further thoughts to try and help.


Are the manufacturers (Doppler) and the suppliers one and the same, or the suppliers uk agents?
Do they give a warranty?
Does your service contract include breakdowns (you wrote a £200 fee?).


Is it known if the lift controller trips if there are power supply fluctuations such as low voltage, droputs, transients thus requiring cycling of the power as you have described? Trying to understand if the problem is potentially triggered by those (may need Doppler to answer those).
If it ought to be impervious to such fluctuations then it will still likely be a lift issue rather than supply issue.
The supplier or Doppler ought to know what the automatic gripping can be caused by and check those items.


Could it be an overloading issue?
The manufacturer may be in Athens but easily contactable by email; their after sales service manager is Dimitrios Mousenikas, email d.mousenikas@doppler.gr. Worth contacting?

J_B

Heedtheadvice wrote: »

Ok. Some further thoughts to try and help.
Thanks again

Are the manufacturers (Doppler) and the suppliers one and the same, or the suppliers uk agents?
UK Agents from Shrewsbury

Do they give a warranty?
Two years , but IIRC that expired quite a while ago

Does your service contract include breakdowns (you wrote a £200 fee?).
No. As you (?) alluded to, lifts are normally quite reliable sp we took the cheaper service contract with PAYG for breakdowns!

Is it known if the lift controller trips if there are power supply fluctuations such as low voltage, droputs, transients thus requiring cycling of the power as you have described?
Not certain, but various rumours down the street about variable power supplies

Trying to understand if the problem is potentially triggered by those (may need Doppler to answer those).
If it ought to be impervious to such fluctuations then it will still likely be a lift issue rather than supply issue.
The supplier or Doppler ought to know what the automatic gripping can be caused by and check those items.


Could it be an overloading issue?
Sadly, there is no 'shrugging shoulders' emoji

The manufacturer may be in Athens but easily contactable by email; their after sales service manager is Dimitrios Mousenikas, email [EMAIL="d.mousenikas@doppler.gr"]d.mousenikas@doppler.gr[/EMAIL]. Worth contacting?
Hmm, maybe

tencharacters

that

just to note if you get your supply from an electric company (as opposed to generating it yourself), there is no such thing as 'single phase', it is all three phase. Each of the three phases are split, giving each household or street or area one phase. That single phase going to each block could be the same phase going to each, or a different phase to each one. Electric companies try and balance the phases so that each phase has the same load - it is an efficiency thing. Your lift vs houses do not each get different types of electricity.

If there is a factory near by, possibly your side of the substation, if they have big motors, besides spikes and brownouts, the voltage and current may not be in phase with each other.

Also two of the 4 bulbs going within two years is not a lot, especially and the bulbs were not sequentially running, but they have been all running acting as one bulb for two years.

The company you hire should have test equipment. Although the equipment to do check and monitor the mains is expensive, you can usually hire the meters on a weekly basis like https://adastrahire.co.uk/browse/power_analysers, but do you have the knowledge, skill and experience to use, interpret and understand the readings? and I would money on that the common household electrician wont.

either way, I foresee you going back to UK Doppler Agents from Shrewsbury. Yes, they may demand your first born, and a contract but your choices are limited. Another possibly cheaper solution is to visit public buildings in the area, and all the lifts tend to have 'Serviced by' or 'in case of problems call' stickers on them. Another point of call could be the local fire brigade whom may be able to inform you of the better companies. If you want some one to visit, watch it fail and pay them £200 for being clueless, i too can fulfil that role, I even have a practiced slopey shoulder shrug for the occasion.

J_B

that wrote: »

just to note if you get your supply from an electric company (as opposed to generating it yourself), there is no such thing as 'single phase', it is all three phase. Each of the three phases are split, giving each household or street or area one phase. That single phase going to each block could be the same phase going to each, or a different phase to each one. Electric companies try and balance the phases so that each phase has the same load - it is an efficiency thing. Your lift vs houses do not each get different types of electricity.
Yup, I understand that
If there is a factory near by, possibly your side of the substation, if they have big motors, besides spikes and brownouts, the voltage and current may not be in phase with each other.
Not to my knowledge
Also two of the 4 bulbs going within two years is not a lot, especially and the bulbs were not sequentially running, but they have been all running acting as one bulb for two years.
Noted - it's probably 3 years since it was first installed and the lights do run 24/7 (I think) - just a shame that they are only available in Athens - the ones I got from Tool Station fit, but won't work. They are thin 5' strip lights but with some complex starting system
The company you hire should have test equipment. Although the equipment to do check and monitor the mains is expensive, you can usually hire the meters on a weekly basis like https://adastrahire.co.uk/browse/power_analysers, but do you have the knowledge, skill and experience to use, interpret and understand the readings? and I would money on that the common household electrician wont.
I have a failed Physics with Mathematics A level from the 70's
either way, I foresee you going back to UK Doppler Agents from Shrewsbury. Yes, they may demand your first born, and a contract but your choices are limited. Another possibly cheaper solution is to visit public buildings in the area, and all the lifts tend to have 'Serviced by' or 'in case of problems call' stickers on them. Another point of call could be the local fire brigade whom may be able to inform you of the better companies.

Good thought

If you want some one to visit, watch it fail and pay them £200 for being clueless, i too can fulfil that role, I even have a practiced slopey shoulder shrug for the occasion.
Come on down - I can do you a discounted rental rate out of season!!!

tencharacters