RBS PayPal Chargeback

MuffPuff

Can I chargeback a transaction if goods weren’t received, if I paid using PayPal funded by my RBS visa debit card?

Transaction value is £1100
I bought three items directly from a merchant, I paid using the PayPal gateway on the merchants website with my RBS debit card.
A week later I received an empty parcel, with only bubble inside.
The courier held the parcel under his arm and only gave it to me after signing, the items were silk shirts so the parcel size wasn’t a red flag.
I contacted the seller who only told me they sent me a box, I received one of those plastic bags, they wouldn’t reply to further emails.
I opened a PayPal dispute but PayPal closed it in the sellers favour, saying it was based on evidence the seller had provided. I phoned PayPal and they wouldn’t tell me anything else.
Can I dispute this as a chargeback with RBS?

Ben8282

No I don't believe that you can.

Gerry1

You've been a victim of the Empty Box Scam (search online). What used to happen was that the empty box was sent to a different address in the same postcode area. The baffled recipient probably thinks it's a practical joke, hence doesn't report it and nobody's any the wiser. After a while the purchaser complains about non delivery but is told that the purchase has been tracked and delivered. It seems that Royal Mail only track delivery to the postcode, not to the specific address, that's the shortcoming that makes this fraud so easy.

PayPal used to give the benefit of the doubt to the buyer, but perhaps the scam has become so widespread that they've stopped doing this. Fraudsters may have cottoned on and become even more blatant, not even bothering to send the empty box to a third party if they think they can get away with it.

It's worth starting a chargeback claim (there's nothing to lose !) but sadly the lesson to be learned is always to use a credit card because Section 75 protection is stronger.

Ben8282

Perhaps another thing to learn is next time you want to spend £1100 on 3 silk shirts, buy them from a known reputable UK retailer and not, as I strongly suspect, from a dodgy Chinese website.

MuffPuff

Does what I was buying and the price really matter if I want to spend my money that way?
I bought them from an Independent Danish designer, directly off their website.
The only payment options available were PayPal, bank transfer and mobilepay (I presume for Danish customers).
They were delivered by DPD but I have contacted them and they won’t help, say the sender has to initiate any claim.

18cc

Your card was used to fund Paypal and that transaction is not in doubt, Paypal got the money from RBS, so no chargeback to RBS.

The Paypal cash was then used to pay the seller and Paypal have found against you. That is a separate transaction from the RBS funding transaction.

The lesson is not to use Paypal, or at least be prepared for the possibility of no help from Paypal if things go wrong.

born_again

Assuming that if was funed by debit card and not from your account by a Direct Debit.
You can do a chargeback. But if you tell them that you signed for a package. They won't. As its pointless.
So if you lie, PayPal will reject the chargeback on the basis that it is signed for. Thus you received the item.

Crap, but sadly as far as chargebacks go all they need to do is prove delivery, not prove what was in the package.

MuffPuff

I’ve been a PayPal customer for almost fifteen years and only used their dispute process twice before, silly me always thought I was protected by them.
I have a credit card which I normally only use for buying electronic goods, flights or booking hotels but I am going to take my debit card off my PayPal account and add the credit card instead.

Yes, it was a Visa debit card I used (not bank transfer).
I’m looking at the RBS chargeback form now, found it online, and it actually has a section about receiving a parcel but missing goods or quantity of goods. Is honesty the best policy on this one?

Gerry1

MuffPuff wrote: »

Is honesty the best policy on this one?

Definitely. If you take the attitude that two wrongs make a right you could end up being accused of fraud, and that could do you a lot of damage.

MuffPuff

Yes, and I also wouldn’t want to get the DPD driver into any trouble. I’m not even sure if RBS would contact DPD but we always have the same driver who goes above and beyond.

I’m going to say I received an empty parcel, the courier only handed it to me after I signed for the parcel and it is theoretically big enough to fit the items in.
I’m going to mull over the chargeback form tonight and send it off tomorrow.
Is there anything I definitely should or shouldn’t include?

Gerry1

I've never really understood why there's any need to use PayPal. It just seems to weaken any protection that's available because it breaks the direct link with the retailer.

In your case I'd just go through the chargeback procedure, say what happened and cross my fingers. If they say no, then you'll just have to put it down to experience. You may just be lucky, even if a strict interpretation of the rules says that you don't qualify.

If nothing else it will add to the stats, and if this is regularly happening them perhaps PayPal may de-register them.