Car Accident Caused Injury

Mercdriver

Shaun_of_the_Dead wrote: »

So there is still an offence of obtaining a pecuniary advantage or has its been removed?

Stop nitpicking Sarge. A pecuniary advantage is making financial gain. The phrase is still true, it's just been simplified.

Shaun_of_the_Dead

Mercdriver wrote: »

Stop nitpicking Sarge. A pecuniary advantage is making financial gain. The phrase is still true, it's just been simplified.

No the offence as was no longer exists.

Shaun_of_the_Dead

Car_54 wrote: »

But obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception is still a crime, it’s simply that those are no longer the words used in the charge.

Show me where where obtaining a pecuniary advantage is a crime then because that offence was repealed.

Car_54

Shaun_of_the_Dead wrote: »

Show me where where obtaining a pecuniary advantage is a crime then because that offence was repealed.

Obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception is a somewhat convoluted way of saying making a gain, or avoiding a loss, by false representation, or withholding information. These are the elements of the offence of fraud.
So obtaining etc. remains a crime, it’s just that those are not the words used.
I imagine the change of terminology- using shorter words. - was an attempt to help the hard of thinking.
Or do you think the intention was to allow people to obtain pecuniary advantages by deception?

Shaun_of_the_Dead

Car_54 wrote: »

Obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception is a somewhat convoluted way of saying making a gain, or avoiding a loss, by false representation, or withholding information. These are the elements of the offence of fraud.
So obtaining etc. remains a crime, it’s just that those are not the words used.
I imagine the change of terminology- using shorter words. - was an attempt to help the hard of thinking.
Or do you think the intention was to allow people to obtain pecuniary advantages by deception?

Is that a long winded way of say the offence was repealed?

Car_54

Shaun_of_the_Dead wrote: »

Is that a long winded way of say the offence was repealed?

No, it’s a possibly long-winded way of saying that “obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception” is a crime, and always has been. The precise wording of the charge is really of no consequence

Hermione_Granger

Car_54 wrote: »

No, it’s a possibly long-winded way of saying that “obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception” is a crime, and always has been. The precise wording of the charge is really of no consequence

It most certainly is when you are as pedantic as Shaun of the Dead (or whatever ID he happens to be using at the time).

AdrianC

Shaun_of_the_Dead wrote: »

Show me where where obtaining a pecuniary advantage is a crime then because that offence was repealed.

Fraud_Act_2006_section_2 wrote:

Fraud by false representation
(1)A person is in breach of this section if he—
(a)dishonestly makes a false representation, and
(b)intends, by making the representation—
(i)to make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii)to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
(2)A representation is false if—
(a)it is untrue or misleading, and
(b)the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.
(3)“Representation” means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of—
(a)the person making the representation, or
(b)any other person.
(4)A representation may be express or implied.
(5)For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).

Fraud_Act_2006_section_3 wrote:

Fraud by failing to disclose information
A person is in breach of this section if he—
(a)dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and
(b)intends, by failing to disclose the information—
(i)to make a gain for himself or another, or
(ii)to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

If you're going to say "But that's different..." then, please, without simply pointing to "the words aren't the same", please feel free to explain the functional difference...?

Extra bonus points if you can explain exactly why neither applies to lying to an insurer when they ask what claims, collisions or incidents you've been involved in in the previous five years.

[Deleted User]

elsien wrote: »

Crash for cash?
It's up to the insurers how hard they want to fight it and sometimes it's cheaper for them just to pay out.

It's hardly 'crash for cash' unless the front vehicle set it up with the idiot boyfriend beforehand to drive into the back of them.

Shaun_of_the_Dead

AdrianC wrote: »

If you're going to say "But that's different..." then, please, without simply pointing to "the words aren't the same", please feel free to explain the functional difference...?

Extra bonus points if you can explain exactly why neither applies to lying to an insurer when they ask what claims, collisions or incidents you've been involved in in the previous five years.

You tell us what's the same then.

16Obtaining pecuniary advantage by deception

(1)A person who by any deception dishonestly obtains for himself or another any pecuniary advantage shall on conviction on indictment be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.

(2)The cases in which a pecuniary advantage within the meaning of this section is to be regarded as obtained for a person are cases where—

(a)any debt or charge for which he makes himself liable or is or may become liable (including one not legally enforceable) is reduced or in whole or in part evaded or deferred; or

(b)he is allowed to borrow by way of overdraft, or to take out any policy of insurance or annuity contract, or obtains an improvement of the terms on which he is allowed to do so ; or

(c)he is given the opportunity to earn remuneration or greater remuneration in an office or employment, or to win money by betting.

(3)For purposes of this section " deception " has the same meaning as in section 15 of this Act.

S. 16 repealed (15.1.2007) by Fraud Act 2006 (c. 35), ss. 14(1)(3), 15(1), Sch. 1 para. 1(a)(iii), Sch. 3 (with Sch. 2 para. 3); S.I. 2006/3200, art. 2

As to neither applying see #15.