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House improvement
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dollythedog
Posts: 38 Forumite
having messed this up first time round, now posting in recommended format, when reading thread please refer to post #29 onwards
• What did you buy?
Internal alterations to garage
• When did you buy it?
Sale agreed April 2019, work started Sept 2019, remaining unfinished
• Where from? (internet or in store - it DOES make a difference)
By accepting a written estimate agreed on-site, based on verbal assurances that no local authority permissions were needed
• How did you pay? (cash/cheque/debit card/credit card etc)
Bank transfer
• What went wrong?
The verbal assurances were incorrect
• What are the vendors telling you?
Deny giving the verbal assurances above, and I have to pay the additional ‘running cost’ even though much of it is for non-compliant work
• What solution or remedy are you looking for? (Companies may Repair / Refund / Replace)
Removal of the non-compliant work at no cost to me, refund of payment already made for non-compliant work
I have asked the builder to take part in his trade association’s ADR, he refused, they suggested contacting CAB, who answered my questions as follows:
1. was I entitled to rely on the advice he gave me, namely that neither planning permission nor building control approval were needed?
answer:
Yes, as you would rely on the trader service being carried out with reasonable care and skill.
2. should I have to pay again to have the work removed?
answer:
Under supply and goods and services- works & materials; the remedies are for repair or replacement that should be provided free of charge, within a reasonable time, and not cause significant inconvenience. There is no set limit for number of repairs or replacements.
3. do I have any right to a refund of the monies already paid?
answer:
You may be able to seek damages from the trader; damages could be for a monetary amount you feel is reasonable to compensate for the breach and ultimately needs to be negotiated between yourself and the trader.
that’s why I posted on the Consumer Rights forum, but following helpful interest on the building project, I am sorry this is not so straightforward so please stop reading here if no interest
the project was designed by my builder, who has done a kitchen, 2 bathrooms and a utility room refit on 2 houses for me, every time with perfect results
I have a semi-integral garage, photo attached
when I bought the house it had plumbing for a washer, electrics and a full height run of tatty wood cupboards along the party wall, plus suspended timber floor over the original concrete slab which is laid direct on subsoil, damp course in the walls but not under the floor, and I had a utility sink fitted 5 years ago, it is very cold and dark
the project was to divide the space with an internal stud/plasterboard wall, retaining an unheated storage space to the front behind the existing garage door, and to insulate the single-skin brick wall, fit a radiator and window in the inner part, replace the tatty wood cupboards with some plain kitchen units to re-fit my sink and house the washer & freezer, floorplan attached
I asked my builder before work started and at other points whether any local authority permissions were needed, he said no, his reasons were the work was permitted development being internal, and exempt from BC approval as non-habitable space, and I accepted his price on that basis
work started in Sept with stripping out & rubbish removal, then building the plasterboard partition, fixing stud timber to the inner wall and boxing in some messy pipework, photo attached
the hole in the wall to the right of the freezer is an ‘access panel’ because the builder hadn’t realised there was no other way into the front storage part if the electric garage door failed, and a door would have been fitted into the hole
by mid-Oct the work was approx. 60% complete in value terms and because I had experience of needing written council confirmation of exemption from BC approval when I sold my previous house (which was achieved with no difficulty as the work was genuinely exempt) I asked my builder for the exact words needed to explain exemption and wrote to the local authority asking for confirmation
they said the project was classed as garage conversion into a room, and needed BC approval which could now only be achieved by regularisation, they sent a form which required drawings and would not specify their application fees until they had a spec for the work, and they would not visit to advise till I’d committed to the fees, I copied to my builder who did not reply
so I started trying to find someone who could advise on drawings, compliance of work done, further work needed to achieve compliance and was quoted hundreds to thousands of pounds with an indication that considerable additional works would be needed, copy of one quote attached
I was advised that in addition to my builder's design the floor would need to be taken up, damp proofed, insulated and re-laid, insulate the partition wall, the external wall insulation was inadequate having no moisture prevention between the timber & single brick outer wall, the party wall would need insulating, the ceiling insulation was similarly inadequate and there was no fireproofing anywhere, needed because of retaining the front storage part which could still be used to store fuel
photo of insulation work without damp/condensation protection attached
in addition, LA planning here has a precept that if you convert a garage you must replace the parking space so I would have to trash the front garden and re-surface with suitable permeable block paving or gravel finish, I believe this to be true because my attached neighbour is presently converting her garage and replacing the parking space is a condition of her PP
these additional costs are beyond my means so I have promised the local authority to regularise by returning the space to ‘garage’ which they say means removing the partition & radiator (Part L1B Building Regs 2010)
I have asked my builder to refund the money I have paid for the non-compliant works and remove them at no cost to me, he is ignoring my request and continues to press for further money for the ‘running total I have got to pay’, sending me demands for immediate payment in big red numbers that don’t add up
I have found out I can keep the window provided I get regularisation from BC, I was advised they will accept a sketch plan instead of a full technical drawing so I did one myself and sent the form and payment a few days ago, if that works then I will at last get the BC inspector to visit and advise
what seems to have gone wrong is my builder treated the project like an internal kitchen/utility refit and didn't allow for it being a garage, not an existing part of the living space and in my ignorance, I didn't realise it made a difference to the building spec
so back to my Consumer Rights questions: if the builder will not negotiate, would the CAB advice work, as I can’t afford to pay him what he wants, then pay him again to take it down and pay a third time to restore the garage?
• What did you buy?
Internal alterations to garage
• When did you buy it?
Sale agreed April 2019, work started Sept 2019, remaining unfinished
• Where from? (internet or in store - it DOES make a difference)
By accepting a written estimate agreed on-site, based on verbal assurances that no local authority permissions were needed
• How did you pay? (cash/cheque/debit card/credit card etc)
Bank transfer
• What went wrong?
The verbal assurances were incorrect
• What are the vendors telling you?
Deny giving the verbal assurances above, and I have to pay the additional ‘running cost’ even though much of it is for non-compliant work
• What solution or remedy are you looking for? (Companies may Repair / Refund / Replace)
Removal of the non-compliant work at no cost to me, refund of payment already made for non-compliant work
I have asked the builder to take part in his trade association’s ADR, he refused, they suggested contacting CAB, who answered my questions as follows:
1. was I entitled to rely on the advice he gave me, namely that neither planning permission nor building control approval were needed?
answer:
Yes, as you would rely on the trader service being carried out with reasonable care and skill.
2. should I have to pay again to have the work removed?
answer:
Under supply and goods and services- works & materials; the remedies are for repair or replacement that should be provided free of charge, within a reasonable time, and not cause significant inconvenience. There is no set limit for number of repairs or replacements.
3. do I have any right to a refund of the monies already paid?
answer:
You may be able to seek damages from the trader; damages could be for a monetary amount you feel is reasonable to compensate for the breach and ultimately needs to be negotiated between yourself and the trader.
that’s why I posted on the Consumer Rights forum, but following helpful interest on the building project, I am sorry this is not so straightforward so please stop reading here if no interest
the project was designed by my builder, who has done a kitchen, 2 bathrooms and a utility room refit on 2 houses for me, every time with perfect results
I have a semi-integral garage, photo attached
when I bought the house it had plumbing for a washer, electrics and a full height run of tatty wood cupboards along the party wall, plus suspended timber floor over the original concrete slab which is laid direct on subsoil, damp course in the walls but not under the floor, and I had a utility sink fitted 5 years ago, it is very cold and dark
the project was to divide the space with an internal stud/plasterboard wall, retaining an unheated storage space to the front behind the existing garage door, and to insulate the single-skin brick wall, fit a radiator and window in the inner part, replace the tatty wood cupboards with some plain kitchen units to re-fit my sink and house the washer & freezer, floorplan attached
I asked my builder before work started and at other points whether any local authority permissions were needed, he said no, his reasons were the work was permitted development being internal, and exempt from BC approval as non-habitable space, and I accepted his price on that basis
work started in Sept with stripping out & rubbish removal, then building the plasterboard partition, fixing stud timber to the inner wall and boxing in some messy pipework, photo attached
the hole in the wall to the right of the freezer is an ‘access panel’ because the builder hadn’t realised there was no other way into the front storage part if the electric garage door failed, and a door would have been fitted into the hole
by mid-Oct the work was approx. 60% complete in value terms and because I had experience of needing written council confirmation of exemption from BC approval when I sold my previous house (which was achieved with no difficulty as the work was genuinely exempt) I asked my builder for the exact words needed to explain exemption and wrote to the local authority asking for confirmation
they said the project was classed as garage conversion into a room, and needed BC approval which could now only be achieved by regularisation, they sent a form which required drawings and would not specify their application fees until they had a spec for the work, and they would not visit to advise till I’d committed to the fees, I copied to my builder who did not reply
so I started trying to find someone who could advise on drawings, compliance of work done, further work needed to achieve compliance and was quoted hundreds to thousands of pounds with an indication that considerable additional works would be needed, copy of one quote attached
I was advised that in addition to my builder's design the floor would need to be taken up, damp proofed, insulated and re-laid, insulate the partition wall, the external wall insulation was inadequate having no moisture prevention between the timber & single brick outer wall, the party wall would need insulating, the ceiling insulation was similarly inadequate and there was no fireproofing anywhere, needed because of retaining the front storage part which could still be used to store fuel
photo of insulation work without damp/condensation protection attached
in addition, LA planning here has a precept that if you convert a garage you must replace the parking space so I would have to trash the front garden and re-surface with suitable permeable block paving or gravel finish, I believe this to be true because my attached neighbour is presently converting her garage and replacing the parking space is a condition of her PP
these additional costs are beyond my means so I have promised the local authority to regularise by returning the space to ‘garage’ which they say means removing the partition & radiator (Part L1B Building Regs 2010)
I have asked my builder to refund the money I have paid for the non-compliant works and remove them at no cost to me, he is ignoring my request and continues to press for further money for the ‘running total I have got to pay’, sending me demands for immediate payment in big red numbers that don’t add up
I have found out I can keep the window provided I get regularisation from BC, I was advised they will accept a sketch plan instead of a full technical drawing so I did one myself and sent the form and payment a few days ago, if that works then I will at last get the BC inspector to visit and advise
what seems to have gone wrong is my builder treated the project like an internal kitchen/utility refit and didn't allow for it being a garage, not an existing part of the living space and in my ignorance, I didn't realise it made a difference to the building spec
so back to my Consumer Rights questions: if the builder will not negotiate, would the CAB advice work, as I can’t afford to pay him what he wants, then pay him again to take it down and pay a third time to restore the garage?
0
Comments
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Darn it man..... please look up paragraphs in the dictionary.0
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I'm not a man, I'm a woman, a widowed pensioner, who was trying to make life a little more comfortable and being harassed by a builder for payment over works contravening Building Regulations.Mr_Singleton wrote: »Darn it man..... please look up paragraphs in the dictionary.
I thought I might find some useful help in the community.
So sorry if my distress led me to disregard the rules of correspondence.0 -
dollythedog wrote: »I'm not a man, I'm a woman, a widowed pensioner, who was trying to make life a little more comfortable and being harassed by a builder for payment over works contravening Building Regulations.
I thought I might find some useful help in the community.
So sorry if my distress led me to disregard the rules of correspondence.
It’s nothing to do with the rules of correspondence, it is to do with putting up a wall of text that people find difficult to read. A lot of people won’t even bother to attempt to read it which is of no help to you if you are looking for advice.
Rather than flounce of in a huff, try taking the time to post again, but just take a little time to break it up into paragraphs just as you almost certainly do if hand writing a letter.0 -
Keep_pedalling wrote: »It’s nothing to do with the rules of correspondence, it is to do with putting up a wall of text that people find difficult to read. A lot of people won’t even bother to attempt to read it which is of no help to you if you are looking for advice.
Rather than flounce of in a huff, try taking the time to post again, but just take a little time to break it up into paragraphs just as you almost certainly do if hand writing a letter.
I don't hand write anything, I type at 80wpm, it's called 'stream of consciousness' writing being an acknowledged form of intellectual communication - darn it man, look it up on Wikipedia
clearly a waste of time here!0 -
shame you deleted the post as someone could have helped.0
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Keep_pedalling wrote: »It’s nothing to do with the rules of correspondence, it is to do with putting up a wall of text that people find difficult to read. A lot of people won’t even bother to attempt to read it which is of no help to you if you are looking for advice.
Rather than flounce of in a huff, try taking the time to post again, but just take a little time to break it up into paragraphs just as you almost certainly do if hand writing a letter.
unlikely as it's been judged 'too difficult to read', I'll pay my solicitor for advice on my worry instead of advice on how to write, although I have to say it's been a wonderful distraction from being harassed for money I don't think I should have to pay!shame you deleted the post as someone could have helped.0 -
dollythedog wrote: »unlikely as it's been judged 'too difficult to read', I'll pay my solicitor for advice on my worry instead of advice on how to write, although I have to say it's been a wonderful distraction from being harassed for money I don't think I should have to pay!
As is your right ... however YOU came here looking for advice. The requests to make your post readable were perfectly valid ... why take the huff about a perfectly reasonable request, when said advice is actually in YOUR best interests? Why retain a wall of text which will alienate ~90% of people who may be able to offer constructive advice?
I hope your solicitor charges the same as advice here would cost.
0 -
As is your right ... however YOU came here looking for advice. The requests to make your post readable were perfectly valid ... why take the huff about a perfectly reasonable request, when said advice is actually in YOUR best interests? Why retain a wall of text which will alienate ~90% of people who may be able to offer constructive advice?
I hope your solicitor charges the same as advice here would cost.
why the shouty capitals? why so defensive? exactly why I deleted the post
as they say, you get what you pay for, I'll stick with my solicitor but he wasn't around late evening yesterday to ask and i wanted to collect my thoughts, office opens in 10 mins!0 -
We know what it's called, and it's a terrible way to write a post here seeking advice. People aren't likely to spend their time trying to pick out the relevant points from your stream.dollythedog wrote: »it's called 'stream of consciousness'0 -
dollythedog wrote: »I don't hand write anything, I type at 80wpm, it's called 'stream of consciousness' writing being an acknowledged form of intellectual communication - darn it man, look it up on Wikipedia
clearly a waste of time here!
I am aware of what stream of consciousness writing is, but when the like of James Joyce and Virginia Wolf used it they still used paragraphs and capitalised the beginning of sentences. Ulysses is a hard read to start with without paragraphs it would be impossible.0
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