Neighbour and management threatening fines and eviction

need_an_answer

gomer wrote: »

It's easy to forget that not everyone wants children. Not everyone wants to listen to screaming babies either.


Some people might call that selfish.

Some people might say expecting other people to just put up with other people's screaming kids and not utter a word of complaint is selfish.


I don't care what time your babies wake up. They are not my babies. Why should i wake up with you?Discuss....

I think its been well discussed this afternoon....

Perhaps in order not to derail the thread that the OP originally set you would be better taking your discuss to mumsnet.

gomer

Retired_Mortgage_Adviser wrote: »

Haha, pouring fuel on the fire :rotfl:

lol :rotfl:



Seriously though, from the age of 13 to 16 my neighbours had their baby the other side of my bedroom wall & she screamed and cried the entire night every single night.

I was woken every night to go to school exhausted & my school work suffered because i was so tired i couldn't concentrate. I actually got caught asleep in a store cupboard on one occasion.

Was i just selfish?

gomer

need_an_answer wrote: »

I think its been well discussed this afternoon....

Perhaps in order not to derail the thread that the OP originally set you would be better taking your discuss to mumsnet.

No way dude. It's pi55ing down outside, i just got soaked for the fifth time today walking the dog & i want some entertainment.

need_an_answer

gomer wrote: »

lol :rotfl:



Seriously though, from the age of 13 to 16 my neighbours had their baby the other side of my bedroom wall & she screamed and cried the entire night every single night.

I was woken every night to go to school exhausted & my school work suffered because i was so tired i couldn't concentrate. I actually got caught asleep in a store cupboard on one occasion.

Was i just selfish?

Were you selfish...you probably inflicted the same sort of punishment on a then young teen when you were a baby/toddler.

What goes around comes around.

gomer

need_an_answer wrote: »

Were you selfish...you probably inflicted the same sort of punishment on a then young teen when you were a baby/toddler.

What goes around comes around.

I never woke. I slept right through. I was also dry all night at 2 months of age. By 14 months old i had 5 GCSE's.


Your turn.....

need_an_answer

gomer wrote: »

I never woke. I slept right through. I was also dry all night at 2 months of age. By 14 months old i had 5 GCSE's.


Your turn.....

i'll raise you if you want ...but the response is likely to kill the thread...if youre still that insistent we'll go to a PM.

princeofpounds

Interesting thread. There is a lot of good advice on it, and also a fair amount of emotional nonsense.


The following points are very relevant for you OP, so worth reiterating:


- Don't worry about being reported to the authorities as a noise nuisance. Normal living sounds are excluded from noise nuisance enforcement, and the council will not do anything more than talk to you about the situation. Rave music at 3am is a legal nuisance, crying baby at 3am is not.


- Don't worry about the threats from the freeholder. You have no direct legal relationship with them. They cannot fine you, and they cannot terminate your tenancy. The worst they could try to do is seek the terminate your headlease (i.e. your landlord's long lease) - that would be a long, expensive trip to court and they would fail, largely because your noise would not fit the legal definition of nuisance (there could be other reasons I won't list).


- Don't worry about that clause in your tenancy agreement. It is not a legally valid clause for a consumer contract and is not enforceable. Furthermore, the only person who could even attempt to enforce it would be your landlord, who doesn't care.


- The only indirect way you could have an indirect legal relationship to the freeholder is if there is a clause in your contract where you commit to maintain all the terms of your landlord's headlease, AND you were shown all those terms prior to moving in. Even then, any individual clause would need to be valid in a consumer contract, and your LL would be the person who would choose to enforce something. Again, because your noise is just normal living noise, you don't even need to begin to worry about this situation.


- The managing agent is just an appointed representative of the freeholder. The freeholder may be an entirely separate individual/company, or it could be a company owned by some or all or the long leaseholders (like your LL and/or neighbours). They might write letters to you at the request of disgruntled neighbours - they might even BE your neighbours (in part, most likely). That doesn't mean they really know or care about the situation and it doesn't mean they can do anything about it.


So, from a legal point of view, you have zero to be concerned about as long as the noise you produce is just a reasonable product of living your life in the flat.


Having said all of that, I think a lot of people raging at the downstairs neighbours are not being that sensible. I have lived underneath a flat with wooden floors and children. At times, it was a nightmare. Totally normal noise, such a dropping marble, can resonate through into the floor below like a louder version of water torture.


The fact is that two things can be true at once. You can be totally justified in the sort of noise you are creating, and your neighbours may have a totally valid complaint when they say the noise is intolerable. Of course they might also be totally unreasonable, but anyone simply assuming they are is jumping to conclusions.


All you should do is try to help where possible. With slippers, rugs, and trying your best to be considerate, it sounds like you are already doing that.


The real culprit here - and I'm surprised it hasn't been emphasized more - is your landlord. He is the one responsible for the wooden flooring (regardless of whether he originally put it in or not). If the freeholder does have any valid breaches to address (leases often prohibit wooden floors, but not always) then he is the only one who needs to answer to them.


So when your neighbours complain, you should be firm, although not necessarily without sympathy (have you ever even visited their flat to hear what the noise could be like? You absolutely don't have to, but you could consider it). Tell them:
a) that any noises you are making are a result of normal and reasonable living in your own home
b) that you have made reasonable voluntary efforts out of sympathy to mitigate noise, by using rugs and slippers at your own cost
c) that you are well aware from their repeated complaints that they do not like the situation, but that there is nothing more you can or will do as you do not control the construction of the flat, so the conversation is over (unless they come up with a great practical idea you hadn't thought of maybe!)
d) so if they want to take it further, they should address your landlord who is responsible for the flooring inside the flat, which is clearly the root cause of the problem

Sapphire

gomer wrote: »

lol :rotfl:



Seriously though, from the age of 13 to 16 my neighbours had their baby the other side of my bedroom wall & she screamed and cried the entire night every single night.

I was woken every night to go to school exhausted & my school work suffered because i was so tired i couldn't concentrate. I actually got caught asleep in a store cupboard on one occasion.

Was i just selfish?

That happened to me, too. The noise was deafening when they moved that offspring into it (converted from bathroom to bedroom, I believe). In the end, I slept on a lilo in the conservatory, before moving out of the place. I got into a terrible state due to the lack of sleep, at a time when I had a responsible job with very long hours. It was a place where I'd been perfectly happy for years before that.

The people living there, and myself, were owner occupiers.

CJRyder

There is a basis in law for a WOIRA. Search for a template letter on here. However, don't use it for TVL.

If the neighbours are making baseless legal threats then you might be lucky and have them accept this one. Whilst a faff to enforce, it's legally sound.

Marvel1

gomer wrote: »

It's easy to forget that not everyone wants children. Not everyone wants to listen to screaming babies either.


Some people might call that selfish.

Some people might say expecting other people to just put up with other people's screaming kids and not utter a word of complaint is selfish.


I don't care what time your babies wake up. They are not my babies. Why should i wake up with you?


Discuss....

Simple solution is avoid a flat.