Urgent advice needed - In Court tomorrow for a possession hearing

Keyser666777

Hi all, regular MSE member and poster who helps in other subs giving advice to other members on subject matter I am qualified in, however as this post is of a personal nature and some friends, family and colleagues know my real MSE username, I have signed up under this pseudonym as a throwaway, hope you don’t mind.

Issue

I am in my local county court tomorrow for the first ever time, my landlord is seeking possession of my home under Section 8 the reason being the amount of rent arrears I have on account.

Arrears as they stand for tomorrow’s hearing are approx £2312.

Circumstances
- HA property and tenancy
- Tenancy is for a 5 year period. After this period expires my circumstances are assessed again, in particular my financial standing. If my earnings are above a certain threshold it is deemed I am able to rent in the private sector and the tenancy ends. If my earnings are below this threshold it is deemed I still have a need for affordable housing and my tenancy is renewed for a further 5 year period.
- One bed flat occupied only by myself
- Moved in 2011 and resident 8yrs
- Rent is approx £78 per week, debited weekly (£317 approx a month)
- I secured the property as a result of an initiative run by my local council and associated agencies (homeless charities, local constabulary, outreach groups etc). It was called the “rough sleepers initiative” and basically gave a small percentage of available housing to those who met certain qualifying conditions. Those being 1) street/rough sleepers for a minimum period of 1yr (verifiable by outreach services and your contact with them as well as them seeing you on the street). 2) minimal or no mental health issues. 3) no drink or drug dependencies. Basically those referred under the rough sleepers initiative didn’t have to go on the local homeless housing list, have their priority assessed and put in a band and have to bid with others on available properties. The council would give a very small percentage of available properties to the initiative to house the street homeless. So for instance they’d give 1 one bed flat for every 20 that went to the bidding system.
- I was a rough sleeper for 2 years, no mental or dependancy issues
- No complaints registered against me in 8 years of tenancy

Background

- in January this year I started a new role, it was not a permanent role employed directly by the company, I was effectively a contractor and the contract was for 6 months, ending the first week of July
- During the first three months of the role until March 24th, I was subjected to abuse from my line manager and fellow colleagues of mine in his clique
- The abuse started pretty much the first week in January being experienced every few days or so and by the beginning of February until March 24th it was a daily occurrence
- The abuse centred around my sexuality and preference. Nicknames of bumboy, gay boy or fudge packer were standard and I was called that in the office by my manager and the team. They would all bend over my desk provocatively with their backside poking out asking if I liked what I saw. Anonymous valentines presents left on my desk of anal lube etc. Despicable messages left on my company provided mobiles voicemail as well as texts. The same over company email and the Skype instant message system. Even a duplicate fake Facebook profile setup by then with my pics taken from my real profile which friended actual friends of mine. There is more and a lot worse but you get the gist.
- I continued the role despite the abuse telling myself to think of the money, trying to detach myself but it was relentless and I couldn’t. I therefore raised a formal grievance regarding everything the third week in March.
- The following day I was called into a urgent meeting by HR and our director regarding my formal grievance. They were empathetic, appalled and apologetic. They reiterated the seriousness of it all and promised a full investigation. They said their main concern was my welfare and possible mental state having endured all of this. I was fine and told them so, I just wanted it to stop. They stated that I took a couple of weeks off on leave, with full pay. Just to remind you I was a contractor and not employed directly by them. As a contractor if you are absent from work for a day for example you don’t get paid for that day like a full time employee would. So their offer of 2 weeks off full pay was above and beyond and I took them up on this to have a break.
- After two weeks off, the day before I was to return, I got an email from HR. I thought it was to let me know the latest update to their investigation before I returned the next day as I had no contact from them from moment I left the meeting.
- The email was notification that my contract had been terminated and not to return to work the following day. The reason given for the termination was as per one of the contract terms they can terminate the contract without reason, giving one weeks notice, I was devastated.
- They paid me what they owed me for March including the one week notice period.
- They didn’t respond to any emails I sent them after that, so I lodged a ET claim as it is free to do so rather than a county court one. I lodged it based on the abuse I suffered under a protected characteristic seeking damages for this but I also claimed for the gross amount of earnings as per the length of the 6 month contract, so basically 3 months salary from March when they terminated the contracted until July when it would have finished
- The post is long enough as it is so won’t go into further detail other than to say their solicitors contacted me to seek a solution so it didn’t go to an ET. The company concerned is a household name and I figure they didn’t want any adverse press if it went to an ET. The solicitors wanted to enter into a compromise agreement, which I was and still am receptive of. After much toing and froing of them not wanting to pay the remaining 3 months of contract as well as the level of recompense for the abuse we came to an agreement at the end of July. However one condition I want is that they provide a reference for me of good content (which is he truth) but I want the reference to state my employment dates are Jan ‘19 - July 19. They don’t want to give me a reference at all, be it the 6 month period of the contract or the actual 3 months I did work. They don’t want to acknowledge i ever worked there. I don’t want a gap in my CV as this may make future employers wary as to what was I doing for a 6 month period.
- Without putting the CA at risk the total amount agreed is around the £22-25k mark.
- The CA still hasn’t been agreed as yet due to the reference issue, however I am at a stage where I am going to relent and if asked by future employers I’ll say I was travelling.

Sorry about the length of above but need to give context. I will be brief now about other background stuff.

- July my mum died of bowel cancer ( Have proof of this )
- October my dad died also but of lung cancer ( again have proof of this)
- So from July I haven’t worked and looked after both parents in their final moments
- Was on UC during this time (July - October) and my rent was paid by UC
- I started a new contract beginning of this month a week after my dads cremation, I am paid monthly.

So with the above now explained I haven’t paid my rent since Feb this year apart from a couple of UC payments and it’s carried on to the total amount of arrears of £2300. Because of all of what’s happened my rent hasn’t been paid. I was assured twice in recent months the CA would be agreed and payment made and I was going to clear the arrears but this hasn’t happened.

So onto my actual questions that I would like your advice and opinions on. Please note my post has purposely been left until tonight the day before the hearing as I couldn’t be certain how much money I would be able to secure to reduce the amount of arrears.

The current level of arrears this morning was £2312. I have today made a payment of £1000 this reduces my arrears to £1312 and that will be the value of arrears at my court hearing tomorrow.

- just started a new job and am paid in 2 weeks time
- Have a pending CA and payment amount of just over £20K
- With both parents passing away have a third share of their estate split with my 2 sisters of approx £10k

With this in mind.......

1. what’s the likelihood the judge awards my HA possession in arrears of £1312?
2. Would the judge be mindful to grant a adjournment of say 4-6 weeks so I can pay the arrears off? I can do this by my employment income alone
3. What is the likelihood he will award an eviction and possession to my HA?

Be grateful if you could give your answers and opinions on those three questions plus anything else you think pertinent or options I can propose to the judge. Borrowing or loans are not an option due to abusing my credit rating when homeless and still not credit worthy.

Thanks all if you’ve made it this far.

G_M

Whatever you do, do not approach the court in the way you ave here. A long-winded speech fullof irrelevant information will not be well received!


I shall comment below:

Keyser666777 wrote: »

[STRIKE]Hi all, regular MSE member and poster who helps in other subs giving advice to other members on subject matter I am qualified in, however as this post is of a personal nature and some friends, family and colleagues know my real MSE username, I have signed up under this pseudonym as a throwaway, hope you don’t mind.[/STRIKE]

Issue

I am in my local county court tomorrow for the first ever time, my landlord is seeking possession of my home under Section 8 the reason being the amount of rent arrears I have on account. OK

Arrears as they stand for tomorrow’s hearing are approx £2312. OK

Circumstances
- HA property and tenancy
- Tenancy is for a 5 year period.[STRIKE] After this period expires my circumstances are assessed again, in particular my financial standing. If my earnings are above a certain threshold it is deemed I am able to rent in the private sector and the tenancy ends. If my earnings are below this threshold it is deemed I still have a need for affordable housing and my tenancy is renewed for a further 5 year period.[/STRIKE]irrelevant
- One bed flat occupied only by myself OK
- Moved in 2011 and resident 8yrs Unclear- so the 5 year fixed term has expired?
- Rent is approx £78 per week, debited weekly (£317 approx a month) Important. So your arrears of £2312 easily exceed 8 weeks rent as required by S8 Ground 8 of the Housing Act.
-[STRIKE] I secured the property as a result of an initiative run by my local council and associated agencies (homeless charities, local constabulary, outreach groups etc). It was called the “rough sleepers initiative” and basically gave a small percentage of available housing to those who met certain qualifying conditions. Those being 1) street/rough sleepers for a minimum period of 1yr (verifiable by outreach services and your contact with them as well as them seeing you on the street). 2) minimal or no mental health issues. 3) no drink or drug dependencies. Basically those referred under the rough sleepers initiative didn’t have to go on the local homeless housing list, have their priority assessed and put in a band and have to bid with others on available properties. The council would give a very small percentage of available properties to the initiative to house the street homeless. So for instance they’d give 1 one bed flat for every 20 that went to the bidding system.
- I was a rough sleeper for 2 years, no mental or dependancy issues
- No complaints registered against me in 8 years of tenancy [/STRIKE]irrelevant

Background

[STRIKE]- in January this year I started a new role, it was not a permanent role employed directly by the company, I was effectively a contractor and the contract was for 6 months, ending the first week of July
- During the first three months of the role until March 24th, I was subjected to abuse from my line manager and fellow colleagues of mine in his clique
- The abuse started pretty much the first week in January being experienced every few days or so and by the beginning of February until March 24th it was a daily occurrence
- The abuse centred around my sexuality and preference. Nicknames of bumboy, gay boy or fudge packer were standard and I was called that in the office by my manager and the team. They would all bend over my desk provocatively with their backside poking out asking if I liked what I saw. Anonymous valentines presents left on my desk of anal lube etc. Despicable messages left on my company provided mobiles voicemail as well as texts. The same over company email and the Skype instant message system. Even a duplicate fake Facebook profile setup by then with my pics taken from my real profile which friended actual friends of mine. There is more and a lot worse but you get the gist.
- I continued the role despite the abuse telling myself to think of the money, trying to detach myself but it was relentless and I couldn’t. I therefore raised a formal grievance regarding everything the third week in March.
- The following day I was called into a urgent meeting by HR and our director regarding my formal grievance. They were empathetic, appalled and apologetic. They reiterated the seriousness of it all and promised a full investigation. They said their main concern was my welfare and possible mental state having endured all of this. I was fine and told them so, I just wanted it to stop. They stated that I took a couple of weeks off on leave, with full pay. Just to remind you I was a contractor and not employed directly by them. As a contractor if you are absent from work for a day for example you don’t get paid for that day like a full time employee would. So their offer of 2 weeks off full pay was above and beyond and I took them up on this to have a break.
- After two weeks off, the day before I was to return, I got an email from HR. I thought it was to let me know the latest update to their investigation before I returned the next day as I had no contact from them from moment I left the meeting.
- The email was notification that my contract had been terminated and not to return to work the following day. The reason given for the termination was as per one of the contract terms they can terminate the contract without reason, giving one weeks notice, I was devastated.
- They paid me what they owed me for March including the one week notice period.
- They didn’t respond to any emails I sent them after that, so I lodged a ET claim as it is free to do so rather than a county court one. I lodged it based on the abuse I suffered under a protected characteristic seeking damages for this but I also claimed for the gross amount of earnings as per the length of the 6 month contract, so basically 3 months salary from March when they terminated the contracted until July when it would have finished
- The post is long enough as it is so won’t go into further detail other than to say their solicitors contacted me to seek a solution so it didn’t go to an ET. The company concerned is a household name and I figure they didn’t want any adverse press if it went to an ET. The solicitors wanted to enter into a compromise agreement, which I was and still am receptive of. After much toing and froing of them not wanting to pay the remaining 3 months of contract as well as the level of recompense for the abuse we came to an agreement at the end of July. However one condition I want is that they provide a reference for me of good content (which is he truth) but I want the reference to state my employment dates are Jan ‘19 - July 19. They don’t want to give me a reference at all, be it the 6 month period of the contract or the actual 3 months I did work. They don’t want to acknowledge i ever worked there. I don’t want a gap in my CV as this may make future employers wary as to what was I doing for a 6 month period.
- Without putting the CA at risk the total amount agreed is around the £22-25k mark.
- The CA still hasn’t been agreed as yet due to the reference issue, however I am at a stage where I am going to relent and if asked by future employers I’ll say I was travelling.
[/STRIKE]I'm afraid all that is irrelevant. It is unfortunate, and clearly has legal implications, but it is an employment issue and not relevant to your tenancy or your rent arrears.
Sorry about the length of above but need to give context. I will be brief now about other background stuff.

[STRIKE]- July my mum died of bowel cancer ( Have proof of this )
- October my dad died also but of lung cancer ( again have proof of this)
- So from July I haven’t worked and looked after both parents in their final moments
- Was on UC during this time (July - October) and my rent was paid by UC
- I started a new contract beginning of this month a week after my dads cremation, I am paid monthly.[/STRIKE]As above

So with the above now explained I haven’t paid my rent since Feb this year apart from a couple of UC payments and it’s carried on to the total amount of arrears of £2300.[STRIKE] Because of all of what’s happened my rent hasn’t been paid. I was assured twice in recent months the CA would be agreed and payment made and I was going to clear the arrears but this hasn’t happened.[/STRIKE]

[STRIKE]So onto my actual questions that I would like your advice and opinions on. Please note my post has purposely been left until tonight the day before the hearing as I couldn’t be certain how much money I would be able to secure to reduce the amount of arrears.[/STRIKE]

The current level of arrears this morning was £2312. I have today made a payment of £1000 this reduces my arrears to £1312 and that will be the value of arrears at my court hearing tomorrow.Ah. OK.
But still more than 8 weeks rent.


[STRIKE]- just started a new job and am paid in 2 weeks time
- Have a pending CA and payment amount of just over £20K
- With both parents passing away have a third share of their estate split with my 2 sisters of approx £10k[/STRIKE]

With this in mind.......

1. what’s the likelihood the judge awards my HA possession in arrears of £1312? The judge will have no discretion - he must grant the landlord possession I'm afraid. But see below.
2. Would the judge be mindful to grant a adjournment of say 4-6 weeks so I can pay the arrears off? I can do this by my employment income alone As above
3. What is the likelihood he will award an eviction and possession to my HA? Very likely, but see below.

.

You said that the "landlord is seeking possession of my home under Section 8", but which ground?

* Ground 8 (Both at the date of the service of the notice under section 8 of this Act relating to the proceedings for possession and at the date of the hearing—
(a)if rent is payable weekly or fortnightly, at least [F17eight weeks’] rent is unpaid) or

* Ground 10 (Some rent lawfully due from the tenant)

If Ground 8, the judge has no discretion.

If Ground 10, the judge does have discretion, and in that case your crcumstances can be taken into account.


However, I have deleted much of your circumstances as I am 99% sure the landlord will have used ground 8. In that case, all that matters is whether or not you still owe 8 or more weeks rent.


Your best chance is to take enough money with you somehow to reduce your arrears to less than 8 weeks rent ie get the debt below £624 (£78 x 8).


See Schedule 2 (17 S8 Grounds a LL can use)

GDB2222

As far as I can see, the judge is bound to give a possession order. Your only hope is to persuade the HA to provide you a couple of weeks to pay off arrears before enforcing it.

GM do you agree? Maybe I have oversimplified?

G_M

GDB2222 wrote: »

As far as I can see, the judge is bound to give a possession order. Your only hope is to persuade the HA to provide you a couple of weeks to pay off arrears before enforcing it.

GM do you agree? Maybe I have oversimplified?

As I said,

* if the LL has sought possession using S8 G8, the court has no choice as the arrears exceed 8 weeks rent
* but if the tenant pays down the arrears on the day to below 8 weeks rent, then S8 G8 will fail
* if the LL has sought possession using S8 G10, the court has discretion, and will consider mitigating circumstances, as well as the tenant's future employment improvement.


But you are also right that whatever the court does, the landlord still has the option to postpone enforcing an eviction, so a personal appeal to the landlord is still an option.

Keyser666777

Thanks all for your input and what is and isn’t relevant.

I did some research on Section 8 and arrears and read many forum posts across the web of others in the same boat, average arrears were £1500-2500 in most posts and a couple higher arrears than that.

In literally all threads the poster responded with the outcome all stating that the judge made an order of a certain value (£100 a month for example) must be paid in addition to the monthly rent payment. If this was not made regardless the circumstances or was late then the HA immediately returns and is granted possession.

Does this no longer happen? If not is there any way I can get a adjournment for 4 weeks most or anything else. I feel sick now as I thought I would be okay owing £1312 tomorrow, less arrears than the threads I read and would be granted a repayment order. Oh wow I am shaking

Keyser666777

Also can some explain section 10 that was mentioned in lay mans terms. What is it in this section that can possibly save me losing my flat and what particularly out of the events I mentioned can be used to this law?

Also I am not represented by counsel as I thought the judge would make a binding payment plan for the areas. Would it be possible to obtain a 4 week adjournment to find and instruct counsel ?

GDB2222

There’s loads of information on the Shelter website. In particular they mentioned a suspended order, which is what you described above. Take a look here.

https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/eviction/eviction_with_a_section_8_notice

I don’t think you would get far with the suggestion that you want an adjournment to instruct counsel.

Do take along paperwork to show that you are within an inch of getting a £20k settlement from your ex employer. Plus you need to have some explanation about why you have paid nothing at all for many months. Clearly, you have been through the wringer, as losing both parents like that must have been terrible for you.

Keyser666777

Sorry I should have said when the DWP contacted my employer when I claimed for UC they said I was on gardening leave when I wasn’t so got paid 0.00 for 4 months in my online portal because the DWP insisted I was still employed and in payment. They asked for payslips to prove my earnings from them which of course I didn’t have.

As said earlier the employers refused to reply to my calls or emails until mid July I sent them proof of a ET claim. I am still owes 4 months money in UC which I have an appeal pending still

[Deleted User]

My ex was in a similar situation (not being treated well by an ex employer, wouldn't communicate, wouldn't even pay sick pay) so he, in the same way, lost his housing. He couldn't prove income and an ability to pay the arrears off.

I think you need to show you have had problems (parents dying, lack of income, difficulty proving income so you couldn't even get benefits) but that you have now started a job and can pay x amount per week.

It might not help, but its all you can do at this point in time. If there is any way at all you can pay more off the arrears to reduce them so you owe less than 8 weeks rent, that would be your best option.

Otherwise you are depending on a Judge bending the law in your favour. It can happen but its by no means a certainty.

Go in with cold hard facts, proof of employment, wages and a budget as well as proof of previous difficulties as to why this was not resolved sooner.

I'm afraid any payments from your previous employer won't help as much as you think, until the money is in your bank account, there is no certainty of payment. What you will get is guesswork, whether they will actually pay it is uncertain.

If there is a duty solicitor at court, discuss the case with them and best ways of presenting it. But you may have to pay for this, not sure how it works.

I really hope you are successful.

GDB2222

Best wishes for the hearing. Hope it goes well.

Comms69

deannatrois wrote: »

My ex was in a similar situation (not being treated well by an ex employer, wouldn't communicate, wouldn't even pay sick pay) so he, in the same way, lost his housing. He couldn't prove income and an ability to pay the arrears off.

I think you need to show you have had problems (parents dying, lack of income, difficulty proving income so you couldn't even get benefits) but that you have now started a job and can pay x amount per week.

It might not help, but its all you can do at this point in time. If there is any way at all you can pay more off the arrears to reduce them so you owe less than 8 weeks rent, that would be your best option.

Otherwise you are depending on a Judge bending the law in your favour. It can happen but its by no means a certainty.

Go in with cold hard facts, proof of employment, wages and a budget as well as proof of previous difficulties as to why this was not resolved sooner.

I'm afraid any payments from your previous employer won't help as much as you think, until the money is in your bank account, there is no certainty of payment. What you will get is guesswork, whether they will actually pay it is uncertain.

If there is a duty solicitor at court, discuss the case with them and best ways of presenting it. But you may have to pay for this, not sure how it works.

I really hope you are successful.

There's no chance of a duty solicitor in the county courts i'm afraid.


OP the best thing to do is speak with the HA representative before the hearing.