Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

ABrass

The insurance is probably in part not comparing like for like. Taking the average of all cars you're including lots of old bangers where the insurance is just for personal injury. Whilst EVs are at the higher end of the market, and not that old yet, of course they'll cost more than average to insure.

Picking a compatible ICE would make sense. The model 3 is about Audi A4 or BMW 3 series size and money.
The leaf is about VWG golf sized, a bit more money but comparable.

Comparing a data set full of i10s and Aygos to one full of E-trons and Jaguars is clearly just going to give you stupid numbers.

JKenH

jeepjunkie said:

EVandPV said:

buglawton said:

Martyn1981 said:

*That said, for those wishing to make an environmental change, the economic benefits of a BEV make the environmental beneficial switch an easy decision, so perhaps 'our' decisions be they environmental or economical, are more intertwined.

I watched a German documentary on EVs the other night and apparently you to have to run a new EV for 6 years average mileage before the environmental benefits overtake an ICE.

There's a chart here that takes into account the larger carbon footprint (30-40% more Co2) of manufacturing EVs so I guess that's where the 6 years comes from:
https://www.br.de/nachrichten/wissen/faktenfuchs-wie-umweltfreundlich-sind-elektroautos,RGBSYTj

I'm not rushing to replace my old ICE car whose manufacturing Co2 is a sunk environmental cost already. In fact if manufacturers supported the repair after market better, that would probably be the biggest environmental benefit.

Begs the question then, why are you even viewing let alone posting on a EV thread when you clearly have no interest in them ?

I would say... that with EVs if it were not for experiences of others on forums like this and youtube etc I would probably have never considered an EV. I love the fact I don't have a chimney sticking out the back of the car polluting local streets with the cheaper fuel not to mention a nice driving experience. I've saved more in fuel that the car cost. So what I'm saying only the individual can decide when the best time is to make that leap. How can people come to a decision if we don't discuss topics...

 A few months ago I was quite pro ICEVs and argued the case that a BEV would not work for me but a lot of comments from those on here who already owned BEVs opened my eyes and I bought one.  Actually owning one has made me realise just how great they are to drive and that is something that doesn’t come across enough. The emphasis of discussion on here seems to be on cost and emissions but of course practicality is the main consideration for most people. If you have a regular commute or have more than one car BEVs make a lot of sense but if I was limited to just one car it would have to be an ICEV and that is still the case for a lot of people.

It doesn’t mean anyone who argues ICEVs are more practical for their circumstances is an EV hater; they would probably love to have all the advantages of a BEV but for entirely practical reasons can’t have one.

buglawton

JKenH said:

almillar said:

buglawton said:

 Remember the name of this website. I am sure things will change and it's only then that the public will vote for EV in serious numbers with their wallets. After checking that national and local govt has a joined up EV infrastructure policy of course (an interesting all-time first that would be).

So why do you keep telling us that EVs cost twice as much to insure? Will you share your source? 2nd time of asking.

Let’s not turn this thread into a battleground - again. Let’s just accept that if someone doesn’t reply they aren’t arguing the point any further. Myriad misconceptions abound in relation to EVs.  Those of us who have them know the benefits. I suspect we were all sceptical at first - I was and am now a sinner repented and a real PITA to my ICE friends. 

On the point of insurance, when I was adding my Leaf as an additional car I approached both of my current insurers and Saga were more than twice as expensive as LV - about 50% more than I was paying for my Mercedes. (LV were more expensive for the Merc.) That’s how insurance goes and is an example of how we get anecdotal stories that EVs are more expensive to insure. 

When websites such as Drive Electric confirm EVs are more expensive to insure though the myth continues.

https://www.drivingelectric.com/your-questions-answered/53/are-electric-cars-expensive-insure

Edit: this is probably as close as we are going to get to comparative statistics for EVs and ICEs. 

The average cost of insuring an electric car is £1,263 (according to Confused.com data, Aug 2018 – Sep 2019).

The latest Confused.com price index, however, reveals the average price of car insurance in the UK is now £789 - this is across all powertrains and models.

https://www.confused.com/on-the-road/cost-of-motoring/real-cost-of-ev-ownership

Yikes! I'm paying under £300 for each of my & wifes middle aged ICE cars. We do low mileages so petrol cost isn't much of an issue. Oh and, 'cos they are older cars from when VED was sensible, total annual VED on 2 cars is £180 iirc.

buglawton

JKenH said:

jeepjunkie said:

EVandPV said:

buglawton said:

Martyn1981 said:

*That said, for those wishing to make an environmental change, the economic benefits of a BEV make the environmental beneficial switch an easy decision, so perhaps 'our' decisions be they environmental or economical, are more intertwined.

I watched a German documentary on EVs the other night and apparently you to have to run a new EV for 6 years average mileage before the environmental benefits overtake an ICE.

There's a chart here that takes into account the larger carbon footprint (30-40% more Co2) of manufacturing EVs so I guess that's where the 6 years comes from:
https://www.br.de/nachrichten/wissen/faktenfuchs-wie-umweltfreundlich-sind-elektroautos,RGBSYTj

I'm not rushing to replace my old ICE car whose manufacturing Co2 is a sunk environmental cost already. In fact if manufacturers supported the repair after market better, that would probably be the biggest environmental benefit.

Begs the question then, why are you even viewing let alone posting on a EV thread when you clearly have no interest in them ?

I would say... that with EVs if it were not for experiences of others on forums like this and youtube etc I would probably have never considered an EV. I love the fact I don't have a chimney sticking out the back of the car polluting local streets with the cheaper fuel not to mention a nice driving experience. I've saved more in fuel that the car cost. So what I'm saying only the individual can decide when the best time is to make that leap. How can people come to a decision if we don't discuss topics...

 A few months ago I was quite pro ICEVs and argued the case that a BEV would not work for me but a lot of comments from those on here who already owned BEVs opened my eyes and I bought one.  Actually owning one has made me realise just how great they are to drive and that is something that doesn’t come across enough. The emphasis of discussion on here seems to be on cost and emissions but of course practicality is the main consideration for most people. If you have a regular commute or have more than one car BEVs make a lot of sense but if I was limited to just one car it would have to be an ICEV and that is still the case for a lot of people.

It doesn’t mean anyone who argues ICEVs are more practical for their circumstances is an EV hater; they would probably love to have all the advantages of a BEV but for entirely practical reasons can’t have one.

When abroad on holiday I always hire a recent good quality automatic that I wouldn't afford at home. Love automatics but very aware of their energy inefficiency if not BEV. I'm sure the driving experience of a BEV which of course is proper automatic would be sublime. Trouble is I wouldn't be able to afford those holidays anymore if I bought an up to date BEV that could approximate the range and flexibility of my 'bangernomics' fleet.

almillar

ABrass said:

The insurance is probably in part not comparing like for like. Taking the average of all cars you're including lots of old bangers where the insurance is just for personal injury. Whilst EVs are at the higher end of the market, and not that old yet, of course they'll cost more than average to insure.

Yep, this would be so easy to do! Like for like. I think I've mentioned it a few times!

JKenH said:

It doesn’t mean anyone who argues ICEVs are more practical for their circumstances is an EV hater; they would probably love to have all the advantages of a BEV but for entirely practical reasons can’t have one.

Of course. And we've established that insurance doesn't need to be one of those practical reasons.

buglawton said:

 a BEV which of course is proper automatic would be sublime.

Generally, they don't have any gears at all, so are much smoother than an automatic, none of the slushyness at all.

EVandPV

almillar said:

Generally, they don't have any gears at all, so are much smoother than an automatic, none of the slushyness at all.

Indeed.
I tend to look on the "stick" in my Zoe as no more than a forward, reverse and off switch for the electric motor. I'd actually prefer one of those dial controls you see in most EVs now.
Takes a bit of getting used to but I now don't miss faffing about with a clutch and gears one jot.

Martyn1981

Two problems I'm now getting whenever I take the ICE out* are 1. That I get in, place right foot on brake, then pause as brain suggests 'something's wrong', then remember to put left foot on clutch instead. 2. That I'm getting stabbing pains in the wallet every time I have to press the brake pedal and set all that lovely energy (momentum) free in the form of brake heat.

*Looks like mileage on the ICE will drop from about 8k to ~1k pa, but range and size are still proving useful. But my ponderings (plottings) have currently imagineered three different ways to justify a long range BEV, some questionable on economic grounds, but balanced out by the fun factor. So much for my usual boring fiscal responsibility!!!!!!!

EVandPV

Martyn1981 said:

*Looks like mileage on the ICE will drop from about 8k to ~1k pa, but range and size are still proving useful. But my ponderings (plottings) have currently imagineered three different ways to justify a long range BEV, some questionable on economic grounds, but balanced out by the fun factor. So much for my usual boring fiscal responsibility!!!!!!!

My mrs is planning to retire soon and at that point we may go down to one car.
I'm hoping by that time (couple of years) longer range BEVs will have come down in price otherwise we might need to consider a PHEV. 
An alternative might be to keep the Zoe (getting around 160-180 miles in the summer) and just hire an ICE on the odd occasion we need to go further.

1961Nick

buglawton said:

JKenH said:

jeepjunkie said:

EVandPV said:

buglawton said:

Martyn1981 said:

*That said, for those wishing to make an environmental change, the economic benefits of a BEV make the environmental beneficial switch an easy decision, so perhaps 'our' decisions be they environmental or economical, are more intertwined.

I watched a German documentary on EVs the other night and apparently you to have to run a new EV for 6 years average mileage before the environmental benefits overtake an ICE.

There's a chart here that takes into account the larger carbon footprint (30-40% more Co2) of manufacturing EVs so I guess that's where the 6 years comes from:
https://www.br.de/nachrichten/wissen/faktenfuchs-wie-umweltfreundlich-sind-elektroautos,RGBSYTj

I'm not rushing to replace my old ICE car whose manufacturing Co2 is a sunk environmental cost already. In fact if manufacturers supported the repair after market better, that would probably be the biggest environmental benefit.

Begs the question then, why are you even viewing let alone posting on a EV thread when you clearly have no interest in them ?

I would say... that with EVs if it were not for experiences of others on forums like this and youtube etc I would probably have never considered an EV. I love the fact I don't have a chimney sticking out the back of the car polluting local streets with the cheaper fuel not to mention a nice driving experience. I've saved more in fuel that the car cost. So what I'm saying only the individual can decide when the best time is to make that leap. How can people come to a decision if we don't discuss topics...

 A few months ago I was quite pro ICEVs and argued the case that a BEV would not work for me but a lot of comments from those on here who already owned BEVs opened my eyes and I bought one.  Actually owning one has made me realise just how great they are to drive and that is something that doesn’t come across enough. The emphasis of discussion on here seems to be on cost and emissions but of course practicality is the main consideration for most people. If you have a regular commute or have more than one car BEVs make a lot of sense but if I was limited to just one car it would have to be an ICEV and that is still the case for a lot of people.

It doesn’t mean anyone who argues ICEVs are more practical for their circumstances is an EV hater; they would probably love to have all the advantages of a BEV but for entirely practical reasons can’t have one.

When abroad on holiday I always hire a recent good quality automatic that I wouldn't afford at home. Love automatics but very aware of their energy inefficiency if not BEV. I'm sure the driving experience of a BEV which of course is proper automatic would be sublime. Trouble is I wouldn't be able to afford those holidays anymore if I bought an up to date BEV that could approximate the range and flexibility of my 'bangernomics' fleet.

Modern automatic transmissions often give better fuel economy than their manual counterparts. The extra gears - typically 7, 8 & 9, plus torque converter lock up is often an advantage over a 6 speed manual.

buglawton

1961Nick said:

buglawton said:

JKenH said:

jeepjunkie said:

EVandPV said:

buglawton said:

Martyn1981 said:

*That said, for those wishing to make an environmental change, the economic benefits of a BEV make the environmental beneficial switch an easy decision, so perhaps 'our' decisions be they environmental or economical, are more intertwined.

I watched a German documentary on EVs the other night and apparently you to have to run a new EV for 6 years average mileage before the environmental benefits overtake an ICE.

There's a chart here that takes into account the larger carbon footprint (30-40% more Co2) of manufacturing EVs so I guess that's where the 6 years comes from:
https://www.br.de/nachrichten/wissen/faktenfuchs-wie-umweltfreundlich-sind-elektroautos,RGBSYTj

I'm not rushing to replace my old ICE car whose manufacturing Co2 is a sunk environmental cost already. In fact if manufacturers supported the repair after market better, that would probably be the biggest environmental benefit.

Begs the question then, why are you even viewing let alone posting on a EV thread when you clearly have no interest in them ?

I would say... that with EVs if it were not for experiences of others on forums like this and youtube etc I would probably have never considered an EV. I love the fact I don't have a chimney sticking out the back of the car polluting local streets with the cheaper fuel not to mention a nice driving experience. I've saved more in fuel that the car cost. So what I'm saying only the individual can decide when the best time is to make that leap. How can people come to a decision if we don't discuss topics...

 A few months ago I was quite pro ICEVs and argued the case that a BEV would not work for me but a lot of comments from those on here who already owned BEVs opened my eyes and I bought one.  Actually owning one has made me realise just how great they are to drive and that is something that doesn’t come across enough. The emphasis of discussion on here seems to be on cost and emissions but of course practicality is the main consideration for most people. If you have a regular commute or have more than one car BEVs make a lot of sense but if I was limited to just one car it would have to be an ICEV and that is still the case for a lot of people.

It doesn’t mean anyone who argues ICEVs are more practical for their circumstances is an EV hater; they would probably love to have all the advantages of a BEV but for entirely practical reasons can’t have one.

When abroad on holiday I always hire a recent good quality automatic that I wouldn't afford at home. Love automatics but very aware of their energy inefficiency if not BEV. I'm sure the driving experience of a BEV which of course is proper automatic would be sublime. Trouble is I wouldn't be able to afford those holidays anymore if I bought an up to date BEV that could approximate the range and flexibility of my 'bangernomics' fleet.

Modern automatic transmissions often give better fuel economy than their manual counterparts. The extra gears - typically 7, 8 & 9, plus torque converter lock up is often an advantage over a 6 speed manual.

I'm sure you're right, some my auto hire cars have been great. But I'm not keen on owning  what's in effect an expensive and delicate Swiss watch between the engine and the wheels.