Battery Electric Vehicle News / Enjoying the Transportation Revolution

thevilla

I have a couple of mates who bought icev this year. Both are two car families and would be ideal candidates for an EV swap for one at least. 

I tried hard to convince them but it only takes the odd naysayer or scare mongering range anxiety report to turn people off so they both went the petrol route.

Hype about EVs can go both ways.

I tried to get one interested in Ripple as he has plenty of money.  Inertia and the temptation to do nothing won.

orrery

JKenH said:

I am also amazed that even after your many years of EV ownership you obviously aren’t confident about the charging experience to risk taking a 40kWh car on a long run so is it not surprising that a lot of ICE drivers still are not ready to accept EVs as their sole car.

Indeed - I'm entirely confident after 8 years of driving 5 different EVs...

... that the charging infrastructure is entirely inadequate for my needs (and I'd guess, looking at the on-line postings, most other people's).

I follow your argument, but it does depend on an awful lot of assumptions I'm not prepared to make. Firstly, on that basis, I'd never have upgraded from my 24kWh Leaf to the 30kWh Leaf, nor from the 30 to the 40, nor from the 40 to the 80. We also have to assume that the CO2 liberated in the build of the EV comes from fossil fuels, but EVs depend on renewables to fulfil their environmental obligations. I'm not responsible for the poor rate of renewables installations, but I was early to install solar PV, and I've long since tried to ensure that my investments and my pensions are not in fossil fuels and I'm now specifically converting to investing in clean energy. How much CO2 will there be to build an EV when it is manufactured with fully renewable power?

The 1500 miles I did per year in the Octavia (and well done in reading what I wrote previously) was as a result of my previous battery upgrades - I only did about 5k miles (of my 12,000 miles +) p.a. in the 24kW Leaf, and that steadily increased with each battery upgrade. I plot my mileage against the PCP contract and the Enyaq is now doing higher mileage than the 12,000 p.a.than I've contracted for, versus the 7,500 miles p.a. in the 40kW (slightly impacted by lockdown).

You could be critical of the CO2 released for each of the EVs I've owned, but those people lucky enough to be in a position to be able to afford a new car are just feeding EVs through to the second hand market where a lot of people have to buy their cars and will continue the CO2 gains (against ICE) that I've started until the battery is scrapped and recycled.

As I said, I don't agree with you but I respect that you have an opinion and it will just have to remain that we don't agree.

zeupater

Hi

Regarding the recent exchanges around range .... the issue being missed is that it's not really one of battery capacity or range but simply the inconvenience of charging whilst the public charging network ... (i) isn't built out to the required density ... and .... (ii) the rate of charge (miles / minute) is still relatively low .... therefore there's a perception that range between charges needs to be maximised.

Of course, increasing storage capacity both adds considerable cost to the vehicle & the burden of additional weight reduces energy efficiency, but the issue is that with average vehicle usage being below 150 miles / week (therefore logic would conclude that well over 50% of vehicles would average significantly less!) then the majority of BEV sales don't need a range greater than this and that there'd be a significant cost sensitive market segment for well below this (maybe 75-100 mile range) as long as the occasional longer journey can be catered for by the charging network infrastructure ....

It's highly likely that the current 'race for range' will be seen as a transitory event in the early adoption phase of EVs and that longer term development will be focussed around overall energy efficiency and rapid power delivery to the batteries ...

I'd certainly be surprised if anyone other than regular (/consistent) high mileage drivers would be looking at a range of anywhere near 400miles in a decade or so, with cars with ranges much greater than ~250(ish) miles being relatively rare ...

HTH - Z

      

shinytop

zeupater said:

Hi

Regarding the recent exchanges around range .... the issue being missed is that it's not really one of battery capacity or range but simply the inconvenience of charging whilst the public charging network ... (i) isn't built out to the required density ... and .... (ii) the rate of charge (miles / minute) is still relatively low .... therefore there's a perception that range between charges needs to be maximised.

Of course, increasing storage capacity both adds considerable cost to the vehicle & the burden of additional weight reduces energy efficiency, but the issue is that with average vehicle usage being below 150 miles / week (therefore logic would conclude that well over 50% of vehicles would average significantly less!) then the majority of BEV sales don't need a range greater than this and that there'd be a significant cost sensitive market segment for well below this (maybe 75-100 mile range) as long as the occasional longer journey can be catered for by the charging network infrastructure ....

It's highly likely that the current 'race for range' will be seen as a transitory event in the early adoption phase of EVs and that longer term development will be focussed around overall energy efficiency and rapid power delivery to the batteries ...

I'd certainly be surprised if anyone other than regular (/consistent) high mileage drivers would be looking at a range of anywhere near 400miles in a decade or so, with cars with ranges much greater than ~250(ish) miles being relatively rare ...

HTH - Z

      

This. Nobody bothered making a motorcycle with a 500 mile range even though it's easy enough.  But it won't happen until I can fill up my EV as easily as my bike. 

JKenH

Taking into account greenhouse gas emissions of electric vehicles for transportation de-carbonization

Scientific paper which reaches an interesting conclusion. You will need to read the paper to fully understand why.

The preferential plug-in electric vehicle (PEV) treatments in existing light-duty vehicle (LDV) fuel consumption and greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions regulations were intended to help jump-start PEV production and market deployment. They have certainly served that purpose, but at the price of increased GHG emissions. We estimate that the preferential treatments in terms of the PEV dilution and leakage effects result in a GHG emissions increase of 1094 million tonnes of CO2eq associated with LDVs sold in 2012–2025 in China, the U.S., and the EU.

 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421521002238

ABrass

JKenH said:

Taking into account greenhouse gas emissions of electric vehicles for transportation de-carbonization

Scientific paper which reaches an interesting conclusion. You will need to read the paper to fully understand why.

The preferential plug-in electric vehicle (PEV) treatments in existing light-duty vehicle (LDV) fuel consumption and greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions regulations were intended to help jump-start PEV production and market deployment. They have certainly served that purpose, but at the price of increased GHG emissions. We estimate that the preferential treatments in terms of the PEV dilution and leakage effects result in a GHG emissions increase of 1094 million tonnes of CO2eq associated with LDVs sold in 2012–2025 in China, the U.S., and the EU.

 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421521002238

Study funded by Saudi Arabia's national oil company says that EVs are bad. What a shocker.

This study was supported by the Aramco Services Company and the U.S. Department of Energy

It's a deliberately very narrow study, it's also based on the IEAs predictions of energy breakdown which are famously bad.

Coastalwatch

It doesn't seem long ago that very few people had faith in heavy duty vehicles ever being powered by batteries but here they are!

Thinking back to the Beebs series Tomorrow's World then here it is.

Is it possibly time for another series and maybe in combination with a look back on some of those earlier broadcasts to see how many of those ideas/dreams were realised! 

Volvo Trucks opens books for full range of heavy electric trucks

Volvo Trucks has now officially opened the ordering system for its range of heavy electric trucks, the FH, FM and FMX. Until now, Volvo Trucks had mainly offered customers and partners to sign letters of intent to buy, but now the manufacturer is starting to take firm orders.

Volvo published technical data on the electric truck trio FH, FM and FMX in June 2021. The company is positioning the FH Electric in the regional and inter-regional transport segment, the FM Electric as a versatile truck for local heavy transport and regional distribution transport, and the FMX Electric as a vehicle for cleaner and quieter construction transport.

In 2021, Volvo Trucks took orders, including purchase intentions, for more than 1,100 electric trucks in over 20 countries. Electric versions of the Volvo FE and Volvo FL medium-duty truck models and VNR (for North America) are already in series production. With the three existing and three new models, Volvo says it covers the range from 16 to 44 tonnes.

https://www.electrive.com/2022/05/02/volvo-trucks-has-begun-accepting-orders-for-heavy-electric-trucks/

JKenH

ABrass said:

JKenH said:

Taking into account greenhouse gas emissions of electric vehicles for transportation de-carbonization

Scientific paper which reaches an interesting conclusion. You will need to read the paper to fully understand why.

The preferential plug-in electric vehicle (PEV) treatments in existing light-duty vehicle (LDV) fuel consumption and greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions regulations were intended to help jump-start PEV production and market deployment. They have certainly served that purpose, but at the price of increased GHG emissions. We estimate that the preferential treatments in terms of the PEV dilution and leakage effects result in a GHG emissions increase of 1094 million tonnes of CO2eq associated with LDVs sold in 2012–2025 in China, the U.S., and the EU.

 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421521002238

Study funded by Saudi Arabia's national oil company says that EVs are bad. What a shocker.

No, it doesn’t say that EVs are bad. I know you like to challenge what I post but if that is the only conclusion you can draw I would respectfully request you read the article again without any preconceptions. 

The point is that the average fleet emissions policies governments are adopting in assuming EVs have zero emissions and giving super credits means that ICEs on the fleet can have higher emissions. If we want to genuinely get vehicle CO2 emissions down it would be better if EVs lifetime emissions (and ICE lifetime emissions for that matter) were used.

This produces the ridiculous situation have that ICE manufacturers can buy EV credits from pure EV manufacturers rather than cut their own emissions. 

Most scientific research is funded by some party. Are we to limit science to funding from ideologically approved sources? I suspect the answer from some people would be YES. 

Grumpy_chap

Coastalwatch said:

It doesn't seem long ago that very few people had faith in heavy duty vehicles ever being powered by batteries but here they are!

In a way, commercial vehicles may be easier to convert to EV once the power and torque demand can be met, and meeting torque is probably easier with electric motors.  Commercial vehicles often have a far more predictable use pattern than the family car.

JKenH

ABrass said:

JKenH said:

Taking into account greenhouse gas emissions of electric vehicles for transportation de-carbonization

Scientific paper which reaches an interesting conclusion. You will need to read the paper to fully understand why.

The preferential plug-in electric vehicle (PEV) treatments in existing light-duty vehicle (LDV) fuel consumption and greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions regulations were intended to help jump-start PEV production and market deployment. They have certainly served that purpose, but at the price of increased GHG emissions. We estimate that the preferential treatments in terms of the PEV dilution and leakage effects result in a GHG emissions increase of 1094 million tonnes of CO2eq associated with LDVs sold in 2012–2025 in China, the U.S., and the EU.

 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421521002238

Study funded by Saudi Arabia's national oil company says that EVs are bad. What a shocker.

This study was supported by the Aramco Services Company and the U.S. Department of Energy

It's a deliberately very narrow study, it's also based on the IEAs predictions of energy breakdown which are famously bad.

Now here’s an article you can really get your teeth into.

A case for the internal combustion engine powered vehicle

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339629819_ScienceDirect_A_case_for_the_internal_combustion_engine_powered_vehicle