ending a joint tenancy agreement question

trusaiyan

He has taken legal advice and the first response confirms with what Shelter have written and I thought, but he is getting a second opinion:

"If you are a joint tenant and decide to end the tenancy, providing this is done correctly, it will end the right of any joint tenants to stay in the property. Anyone who wants to remain may wish to discuss the situation with the landlord to see if a new tenancy can be created for them.

As advised, a valid written notice would end the tenancy for all joint tenants. Whether a new tenancy has been created would depend on what has been agreed between the remaining joint tenant and the landlord.

If a valid written notice was served to end the joint tenancy, then that tenancy will no longer exist and your liability will have ended. "

It therefore does not matter if someone remains, the joint tenancy ends (according to that advice), but as I stated he is getting further advice.

For what it is worth the EA does not dispute that he ended his part of the tenancy (they accept his notice as valid etc), and they do not dispute that his ex gf is allowed to continue living there paying the bills etc.

The question is... is she therefore on a new tenancy and did the joint one end? Well with the advice so far in this thread that is no, but Shelter and the advice he has taken above says it must have.

[Deleted User]

trusaiyan wrote: »

He has taken legal advice and the first response confirms with what Shelter have written and I thought, but he is getting a second opinion:

If you are a joint tenant and decide to end the tenancy, providing this is done correctly, it will end the right of any joint tenants to stay in the property. Anyone who wants to remain may wish to discuss the situation with the landlord to see if a new tenancy can be created for them.

As advised, a valid written notice would end the tenancy for all joint tenants. Whether a new tenancy has been created would depend on what has been agreed between the remaining joint tenant and the landlord.

If a valid written notice was served to end the joint tenancy, then that tenancy will no longer exist and your liability will have ended.

It therefore does not matter if someone remains, the joint tenancy ends (according to that advice), but as I stated he is getting further advice.

For what it is worth the EA does not dispute that he ended his part of the tenancy (they accept his notice as valid etc), and they do not dispute that his ex gf is allowed to continue living there paying the bills etc.

The question is... is she therefore on a new tenancy and did the joint one end? Well with the advice so far in this thread that is no, but Shelter and the advice he has taken above says it must have.

Legally speaking there is no "his part of the tenancy," because it's a joint tenancy meaning there is joint and several liability for the whole tenancy.

You are still misinterpreting Shelter and now this legal advice your friend has sought. There is nothing in either that says the remaining joint tenant has or must have created a new tenancy. Her remaining in the property won't have automatically created a new tenancy solely in her name. It could well be that the remaining joint tenant has taken steps to set up a new tenancy solely in her own name but unless you ask her from proof of this there is no way for your friend to know.

trusaiyan

The advice strongly suggests the joint tenancy ends whether one of them remains or not. it ends after the notice period (which is not what has been posted here).

if they accept her living there post notice, and if it is true that the joint tenancy ended, it must be true that she is now on a new tenancy agreement whether they have officially got her to sign a new contract or not. she cannot be on the old agreement if it ended with his valid notice (providing this advice is correct).

[Deleted User]

trusaiyan wrote: »

The advice strongly suggests the joint tenancy ends whether one of them remains or not. it ends after the notice period (which is not what has been posted here).

if they accept her living there post notice, and if it is true that the joint tenancy ended, it must be true that she is now on a new tenancy agreement whether they have officially got her to sign a new contract or not. she cannot be on the old agreement if it ended with his valid notice (providing this advice is correct).

What's the point. You've had the relevant legislation explained to you and even been provided with the links to it. You are welcome to believe whatever you like.

trusaiyan

Because currently it is unclear which is correct as the professional advice doesn't correspond with the legislation that's been posted in this thread. I am not arguing for the sake of it, but of course he wants to know which is correct.

It has been stated on here that because one of them remains, the joint tenancy did not end, but this may be totally false and it did end with his notice.

This is an important matter of law and its in the public interest for this to be known. I appreciate the advice given here as always (I use MSE alot but rarely post).

I will post any further professional advice here once received for anyone interested. He has requested the relevant parts of legislation which formed their opinion.

CIS

It may be worth taking a look at this parliamentary briefing document, which covers the ending of tenancies. The case law covered should assist.
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN05149/SN05149.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwial-GKi_blAhUDQhUIHbF0C4EQFjAHegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw30Ym6U5ICwD5O_0ZCMtH9V

Comms69

Just to clarify G_M is correct (as usual)


The double rent is the biggest reason to not sign up to joint tenancies wherever possible. Much better to sign as sole tenant and let other party move in

trusaiyan

Lover_of_Lycra wrote: »

Legally speaking there is no "his part of the tenancy," because it's a joint tenancy meaning there is joint and several liability for the whole tenancy.

You are still misinterpreting Shelter and now this legal advice your friend has sought. There is nothing in either that says the remaining joint tenant has or must have created a new tenancy. Her remaining in the property won't have automatically created a new tenancy solely in her name. It could well be that the remaining joint tenant has taken steps to set up a new tenancy solely in her own name but unless you ask her from proof of this there is no way for your friend to know.

So you are saying her remaining in the property (if she did not agree any formal new tenancy with the EA) means that the joint tenancy has NOT ended with his notice, even though he left?

Is that what you are saying?

Comms69

trusaiyan wrote: »

He has taken legal advice and the first response confirms with what Shelter have written and I thought, but he is getting a second opinion:

"If you are a joint tenant and decide to end the tenancy, providing this is done correctly, it will end the right of any joint tenants to stay in the property. Anyone who wants to remain may wish to discuss the situation with the landlord to see if a new tenancy can be created for them. - Indeed.

As advised, a valid written notice would end the tenancy for all joint tenants. Whether a new tenancy has been created would depend on what has been agreed between the remaining joint tenant and the landlord. - agreed

If a valid written notice was served to end the joint tenancy, then that tenancy will no longer exist and your liability will have ended. " - wrong. The tenancy can ONLY end by handing back possession. Think about it logically. I could serve notice and then just stay, not bound by the tenancy (and therefore not bound to pay rent?)

It therefore does not matter if someone remains, the joint tenancy ends (according to that advice), but as I stated he is getting further advice. - that advice is wrong, or atleast misleading

For what it is worth the EA does not dispute that he ended his part of the tenancy (they accept his notice as valid etc), and they do not dispute that his ex gf is allowed to continue living there paying the bills etc. - estate agents are often ignorant of the law, nor are they a party to the tenancy

The question is... is she therefore on a new tenancy and did the joint one end? Well with the advice so far in this thread that is no, but Shelter and the advice he has taken above says it must have.

NO. They are liable for double rent. All the landlord has to do is let it build up and then take it to court.


I don't know who the advice is from. However what you do have is the actual legislation provided by G_M. It literally is what the law says

Comms69

trusaiyan wrote: »

So you are saying her remaining in the property (if she did not agree any formal new tenancy with the EA) means that the joint tenancy has NOT ended with his notice, even though he left?

Is that what you are saying?

That is literally what everyone is saying yes. (and that he now owes double rent; as does she - ie jointly they are now liable for twice the rent, and either party can be chased for the FULL amount)