ending a joint tenancy agreement question

trusaiyan

Hi All

My friend was in a joint tenancy agreement with his ex gf which was on periodic basis, because the fixed term ended after 6 months as they would not pay the renewal fee to the EA (so it defaulted to a rolling periodic agreement and they were on this for nearly 2 years). Their EA confirmed this in emails.

In August 27th this year, my friend gave his notice to end the tenancy which was a month notice which the EA accepted. By the end of his notice period he had left but his ex gf remained living there (and still does now).

Can anyone answer these questions in regards to the legal side:

For the purposes of the law, is it CORRECT or FALSE that a new tenancy agreement begun for his ex gf when his notice period ended but she remained in the property (with her as the sole tenant)? Is it true that the joint tenancy agreement ended for both of them after his notice period?

From the advice I've seen currently such as on Shelter website, it states that when a periodic tenancy is ended it ends for both parties whether they both agree or not. The notice ends the tenancy for both (google 'Shelter, end joint tenancy agreement' - I cannot post urls).

Does a new agreement automatically arise after the notice period if one of the tenants remains in the property? If so can anyone point to the relevant legislation which would confirm this? The EA have never got her to sign a new agreement but she is living there and paying bills?

Also, would it typically be on the HA or Estate Agent (as the Landlords agent) to tell the local council that a tenant has moved out for the purposes of council tax even if one remains? The EA have not told the council that he has left so she has not been receiving discount.

Any advice welcomed (pref legal experts)?

G_M

trusaiyan wrote: »

My friend was in a joint tenancy agreement with his ex gf which was on periodic basis, because the fixed term ended after 6 months as they would not pay the renewal fee to the EA (so it defaulted to a rolling periodic agreement and they were on this for nearly 2 years). Their EA confirmed this in emails.

In August 27th this year, my friend gave his notice to end the tenancy which was a month notice which the EA accepted. By the end of his notice period he had left but his ex gf remained living there (and still does now).

Can anyone answer these questions in regards to the legal side:

For the purposes of the law, is it CORRECT or FALSE that a new tenancy agreement begun for his ex gf when his notice period ended but she remained in the property (with her as the sole tenant)?
False. Unless both joint tenants vacated, the original joint tenancy continues.

Is it true that the joint tenancy agreement ended for both of them after his notice period? False.. Unless they both vacated (or a new tenancy agreement was agreed between gf and landlord).

From the advice I've seen currently such as on Shelter website, it states that when a periodic tenancy is ended it ends for both parties whether they both agree or not.
correct -provided they vacate.

The notice ends the tenancy for both (google 'Shelter, end joint tenancy agreement' - I cannot post urls). correct -provided they vacate.

Does a new agreement automatically arise after the notice period if one of the tenants remains in the property?
No

If so can anyone point to the relevant legislation which would confirm this? There is none.
The EA have never got her to sign a new agreement but she is living there and paying bills? But your friend is still a joint tenant.
As the two joint tenants failed to vacate when the notice expired, double rent can be charged by the landlord.

Also, would it typically be on the HA or Estate Agent (as the Landlords agent) to tell the local council that a tenant has moved out for the purposes of council tax even if one remains?
It is the occupant's responsibility.

The EA have not told the council that he has left so she has not been receiving discount.

Any advice welcomed (pref legal experts)?

Your friend is still liable for any rent arears or damage etc relating to the tenancy.


See also
Distress For Rent Act 1737 S18 & Landlord and Tenant Act 1730 S1(Double rent if tenant stays

trusaiyan

Thanks for the reply, I have to say it is not consistent with what I have seen elsewhere.

Shelter states:

Ending a joint periodic tenancy

You can serve a notice to end the tenancy. You don't need permission from the other tenants.

When the notice ends, the tenancy and the right to live in the property will end for all tenants.

Any tenants who want to stay on at the property need to try and arrange a new tenancy agreement with the landlord


That strongly suggests it makes no difference if they agree or disagree, at end of notice it ends for both whether one remains or not (or it at least definitely ends for him).

And there has to be relevant legislation that would concern this (there definitely should be if there isn't?)

Can you provide sources for your position?

CIS

Also, would it typically be on the HA or Estate Agent (as the Landlords agent) to tell the local council that a tenant has moved out for the purposes of council tax even if one remains?

Legally neither party has to tell the council unless a) a discount/exemption is being claimed or b) a specific legal notice has been served on the party.

trusaiyan

The agreement stated at the end of the tenancy they will notify the council (if the joint tenancy ended they should have therefore). And furthermore the council's website states the EA MUST notify the council of any tenants moving in and out. One of the tenants DID move out, regardless of whether an agreement ended and started new (or it remained).

Source?

getmore4less

How is vacate defined?

Can someone become vacated without their permission?

Eg not in the property on the relevant date and their possessions removed?

trusaiyan

CIS wrote: »

Legally neither party has to tell the council unless a) a discount/exemption is being claimed or b) a specific legal notice has been served on the party.

It did affect a discount in that it should have rendered his ex gf onto a discounted rate. The EA told the council who was moving in when they first moved in, so it is perfectly reasonable for them to expect the EA tells the council when someone leaves (but they haven't done so). Ultimately they are tenants and not property owners.

There is nothing in the wording on the councils site that states the EA doesn't have to tell them, it states explicitly a landlord or agent must tell us when someone moves in or out the property.

CIS

Reporting a change of circumstances in respect of a discount applies only where a) a discount is already in place and b) the actual onus to so do is in the person named on the demand notice (and can be subject to a financial penalty for a failure).



Anything stated in her contract is between the contracting parties only, you can't bind the council by it.





The council can say what they like, there's no general legislative requirement to report council tax circumstances unless it falls in to one of the specifically defined situations. It's been tested in court more than once, including relatively recently in a fraud case, and in each case the court have agreed with the complete lack of any general requirement (it's one of the major flaws of the council tax system).

nyermen

Concern for the OP - albeit I may be wrong, G_M likely knows the answer - when I gave notice with my flatmate a few years ago (she was on benefits), the council then told her the usual stay put (to prevent voluntary homelessness) and at the time it was indicated that we (well - I - as they'd have come after me) would be liable for double rent as a result of not vacating. If true - that could mean the friend is liable jointly if the landlord claims - even though he himself vacated?

[Deleted User]

trusaiyan wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, I have to say it is not consistent with what I have seen elsewhere.

Shelter states:

Ending a joint periodic tenancy

You can serve a notice to end the tenancy. You don't need permission from the other tenants.

When the notice ends, the tenancy and the right to live in the property will end for all tenants.

Any tenants who want to stay on at the property need to try and arrange a new tenancy agreement with the landlord


That strongly suggests it makes no difference if they agree or disagree, at end of notice it ends for both whether one remains or not (or it at least definitely ends for him).

And there has to be relevant legislation that would concern this (there definitely should be if there isn't?)

Can you provide sources for your position?

G_M gave you the links to the Distress for Rent Act 1737 and Landlord and Tenant Act.

With joint tenants the joint tenants are one legal entity, there is no him and her legally speaking. When a (joint) tenant gives notice to end the tenancy but does not vacate (this means all on the joint tenancy need to vacate) the period in which the (joint) tenant is in occupation after the notice period ends is called "holding over" and puts the landlord in a tricky position because the landlord cannot relet the property whilst the (joint) tenant is still occupying the property. s18 of the Distress for Rent Act 1737 was introduced to discourage tenants from doing this by allowing the landlord to charge double rent.

Yalpsmol

I think you're interpreting the Shelter website differently to intended. It says the person staying needs to try and negotiate a new tenancy. They haven't done that, so there is no new tenancy agreement in place. So the right to live in the property ended for both tenants but one stayed anyway (see Lover of Lycras post re Holding Over).