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The Alternative Green Energy Thread

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  • JKenH
    JKenH Posts: 5,117 Forumite
    Sixth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    EVandPV wrote: »
    You must study really hard !

    Could we keep it courteous please on this thread?
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)
  • GreatApe wrote: »
    You need repeated experiments not studies. Studies are mostly nonsense propaganda

    Many studies show the massive harm and cost of coal power generation

    Yet when you do the actual experiment, shut down almost all your coal useage, eg UK, guess how much the coal savings were for the NHS......... somewhere between zero and negligible

    Lol, what a ridiculous statement! Do you also think that new coal miners get black lungs in their first week of working in a mine? :rotfl:
    5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
    Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
    Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
    Mini orchard planted and vegetable allotment created.
  • GreatApe
    GreatApe Posts: 4,452 Forumite
    Lol, what a ridiculous statement! Do you also think that new coal miners get black lungs in their first week of working in a mine? :rotfl:

    Interesting point but moot on a group level

    Eg if a million snookers quit smoking many of the group's problems or rate of problems would improve instantly

    Some other things like lower rates of lung cancer would show up over time

    But even then the group is big enough that you should be able to see it statically Almost instantly on a group level
  • GreatApe wrote: »
    Interesting point but moot on a group level

    Eg if a million snookers quit smoking many of the group's problems or rate of problems would improve instantly

    Some other things like lower rates of lung cancer would show up over time

    But even then the group is big enough that you should be able to see it statically Almost instantly on a group level

    I assume you can post proof that health hasn’t improved with the ‘shutting down of coal usage’?
    5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
    Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
    Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
    Mini orchard planted and vegetable allotment created.
  • GreatApe
    GreatApe Posts: 4,452 Forumite
    I assume you can post proof that health hasn’t improved with the ‘shutting down of coal usage’?

    My assertion is that it has been negligible to the extent it won't show up
    If you feel otherwise feel free to prove this view wrong

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.env-health.org/IMG/pdf/heal_briefing_what_does_coal_cost_health_in_the_uk_29112013final1_1.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj88pv584vnAhXLa8AKHcHTBBsQFjADegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2y7yN9PJLUfF9dqxseKk-T

    Here is a 'study' posted before which is claiming UK coal power stations cost £1-3 billion a year in heath. well why didn't the same study group release a paper showing what the actual results were post the huge number of coal plant shut downs in the UK?

    £1-3 billion is definitely big enough to show up on the NHS and the UK coal burn went down very rapidly so it's a good data set in that it wasn't decades apart from high to low coal

    Has heath from lower coal burn improved? I don't know but what I know for sure is that if it did show up it would be plastered everywhere on the green media because it's actual experimental results not just a worthless 'study'

    So I make the assertion again
    The studies of billions in heath cost from coal power stations are BS
  • GreatApe
    GreatApe Posts: 4,452 Forumite
    Also when I've discussed this with others more knowledgeable than most of you
    It transpires that the heath cost of coal or any other thing you want to inflate is based on very ridiculous costings for heath and life

    I recall having this discussion with someone else on here about a decade ago
    He was very green minded but working in finance he was smart enough to be reasoned with
    I recall he took your side
    But when we investigated and found out that particular study was basing costs on lives lost at >$10 million a piece while the NHS isn't willing to spend more than £20k per life year extended (or whatever the NICE current valuations is) he was accepting of my assertion that studies are indeed mostly BS


    The problem with 'studies' is they are almost always just a huge bag of guesswork and assumptions HEAVILY massages to fit a pre existing view point. For heath impact.of fossil fuels it's two huge bags of guesswork. 1 the heath impact and 2 valuing various heath impacts to a $$$ amount based on various models themselves

    Overall I still maintain the studies on heath v fossil fuels are totally worthless

    If you disagree we have an actual experiment
    High coal burn UK going very rapidly to low coal burn UK
    If there was a 3 billion a year cost.to heath it would have definitely shown up in the NHS
  • GreatApe
    GreatApe Posts: 4,452 Forumite
    Bhlaraidh wind farm near Fort Augustus, Scottish Highlands - which has 32 turbines - was constrained for 29 per cent of 2018.


    Nearly 30% of the wind output was curailed

    The market is broken
    We may need to return to regional electricity prices
    Prices in Scotland would go down especially during windy times
    An incentive to switch to electricity heating

    Of course the lower prices would also mean fewer wind farms would be built in Scotland
    Again a positive development in that you should build in England where they won't be curtailed to any significant degree

    Hybrid gas/electric heating solutions are needed
    Especially on Scotland
    The curtialment cost of nearly £150 million a year can be reduced towards £0 with hybrid heating solutions

    Deploy 500,000 smart resistance heaters in Scotland
    They go on when there is excessive wind and only charge 3p a unit through those heaters which is equal or more than the gas saved

    Can be done in under one year
  • JKenH
    JKenH Posts: 5,117 Forumite
    Sixth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    edited 18 January 2020 at 10:07AM
    GreatApe wrote: »
    Also when I've discussed this with others more knowledgeable than most of you
    It transpires that the heath cost of coal or any other thing you want to inflate is based on very ridiculous costings for heath and life

    I recall having this discussion with someone else on here about a decade ago
    He was very green minded but working in finance he was smart enough to be reasoned with
    I recall he took your side
    But when we investigated and found out that particular study was basing costs on lives lost at >$10 million a piece while the NHS isn't willing to spend more than £20k per life year extended (or whatever the NICE current valuations is) he was accepting of my assertion that studies are indeed mostly BS


    The problem with 'studies' is they are almost always just a huge bag of guesswork and assumptions HEAVILY massages to fit a pre existing view point. For heath impact.of fossil fuels it's two huge bags of guesswork. 1 the heath impact and 2 valuing various heath impacts to a $$$ amount based on various models themselves

    Overall I still maintain the studies on heath v fossil fuels are totally worthless

    If you disagree we have an actual experiment
    High coal burn UK going very rapidly to low coal burn UK
    If there was a 3 billion a year cost.to heath it would have definitely shown up in the NHS




    An old jest runs to the effect that there are three degrees of comparison among liars. There are liars, there are outrageous liars, and there are scientific experts.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)
  • I assume you can post proof that health hasn’t improved with the ‘shutting down of coal usage’?
    GreatApe wrote: »
    My assertion is that it has been negligible to the extent it won't show up
    If you feel otherwise feel free to prove this view wrong

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.env-health.org/IMG/pdf/heal_briefing_what_does_coal_cost_health_in_the_uk_29112013final1_1.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj88pv584vnAhXLa8AKHcHTBBsQFjADegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2y7yN9PJLUfF9dqxseKk-T

    Here is a 'study' posted before which is claiming UK coal power stations cost £1-3 billion a year in heath. well why didn't the same study group release a paper showing what the actual results were post the huge number of coal plant shut downs in the UK?

    £1-3 billion is definitely big enough to show up on the NHS and the UK coal burn went down very rapidly so it's a good data set in that it wasn't decades apart from high to low coal

    Has heath from lower coal burn improved? I don't know but what I know for sure is that if it did show up it would be plastered everywhere on the green media because it's actual experimental results not just a worthless 'study'

    So I make the assertion again
    The studies of billions in heath cost from coal power stations are BS

    So, that’s a ‘no’ then :rotfl::rotfl:
    5.18 kWp PV systems (3.68 E/W & 1.5 E).
    Solar iBoost+ to two immersion heaters on 300L thermal store.
    Vegan household with 100% composted food waste
    Mini orchard planted and vegetable allotment created.
  • JKenH
    JKenH Posts: 5,117 Forumite
    Sixth Anniversary 1,000 Posts Name Dropper
    So, that’s a ‘no’ then :rotfl::rotfl:

    Please keep it civil.
    Northern Lincolnshire. 7.8 kWp system, (4.2 kw west facing panels , 3.6 kw east facing), Solis inverters, Solar IBoost water heater, Mitsubishi SRK35ZS-S and SRK20ZS-S Wall Mounted Inverter Heat Pumps, ex Nissan Leaf owner)
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