The Alternative Green Energy Thread

QrizB

JKenH said:

There’s probably a more insidious form of pollution emanating from your stove. A growing body of research shows gas stoves emit toxic compounds even when not in use. Among the most worrisome is benzene, a carcinogen. A study by PSE Healthy Energy found benzene in 99% of samples it took in homes in California. Other chemicals discovered included xylene, toluene and ethylbenzene, which can also cause respiratory issues and may cause cancer as well.

This is not a criticism of JKenH, partly is criticism of The Guardian, and mostly is criticism of PSE Healthy Energy.

Their report (link) shows that natural gas in California does indeed include all those things. However the levels are tiny. The maximum benzene concentration found was 66ppm, and the average was no higher than 12ppm.

At a concentration of 12ppm, an average household using ~1000 cubic metres (a million litres) of natural gas a year would receive 12 litres of benzene vapour. That's roughly 40 grams of benzene, or 0.1 grams a day. Now consider that 80% of that gas is burned in a room-sealed central heating boiler, and that benzene burns, the amount in your kitchen at any given time is going to be tiny. Milligrams, maybe micrograms. In even a small kitchen, say 2mx2mx2.3m, that's an airborne concentration of much less than 1ppm and for a relatively short time (unless you're a professional chef).

This is mostly a report showing quite how effective gas chromatography is at finding low concentrations of contaminants in methane. It's not a report with worrying health implications, IMHO.

shinytop

JKenH said:

I mentioned on the EV discussion thread how many people may cite environmental reasons for switching to an electric car but still heat their homes and cook with gas. 

Why is this? Is it just because we don’t realise the impact of our gas cookers and CH boilers on the environment? Or maybe we do realise but gas is so cheap we aren’t prepared to switch to more expensive electric heating or cooking - or at least not until the government makes it financially worth our while. 

Often the comment is made that “I got rid of my ICE car because I care about my children and grandchildren” but it seems we don’t place the same importance on ditching our gas boilers and cookers even though they may be worse for the environment and climate change. 

Because when you spend your wedge on an EV you get a shiny new gadget you wouldn't have otherwise had.  With a bit of man-maths and personal greenwashing, you can easily convince yourself you're saving both money and the environment.  

When you get rid of your gas boiler and gas cooker and get an ASHP and and electric cooker, you get something that is a lot more expensive and less convenient, even though it's definitely better for the environment.  This is not such a compelling proposition to most.

Alnat1

shinytop said:

JKenH said:

I mentioned on the EV discussion thread how many people may cite environmental reasons for switching to an electric car but still heat their homes and cook with gas. 

Why is this? Is it just because we don’t realise the impact of our gas cookers and CH boilers on the environment? Or maybe we do realise but gas is so cheap we aren’t prepared to switch to more expensive electric heating or cooking - or at least not until the government makes it financially worth our while. 

Often the comment is made that “I got rid of my ICE car because I care about my children and grandchildren” but it seems we don’t place the same importance on ditching our gas boilers and cookers even though they may be worse for the environment and climate change. 

Because when you spend your wedge on an EV you get a shiny new gadget you wouldn't have otherwise had.  With a bit of man-maths and personal greenwashing, you can easily convince yourself you're saving both money and the environment.  

When you get rid of your gas boiler and gas cooker and get an ASHP and and electric cooker, you get something that is a lot more expensive and less convenient, even though it's definitely better for the environment.  This is not such a compelling proposition to most.

Seems some of us do it the other way around. Had PV/battery in 2022, recently changed out the dual fuel range cooker for an induction model, this is in anticipation of ASHP being fitted in next few months.

Next car will be an EV but probably 2-3 years away yet. Main reason for this is that we don't have the option of of sal sac and the like and we also don't take out loans. So we'll save up and get an EV when we can afford it.

JKenH

According to Bloomberg, an extra £50m has, apparently, been paid to wind farm operators over the last 5 years because of exaggeration of forecasts used to calculate curtailment costs.

A Problem Lurking in the UK’s Power Market

Britain’s outdated electricity network has a growing problem: On blustery days, too much wind power risks overloading the system, and the grid operator must respond by paying some firms not to generate. This “curtailment” costs consumers hundreds of millions of pounds each year.

Adding to that expense, some wind farm operators exaggerate how much energy they say they intend to produce, which boosts the payments they receive for turning off, according to nine people — traders, academics and market experts — most of whom agreed to discuss this controversial behavior only on condition of anonymity.

In effect, they said, the grid has paid some wind farms not to generate power that they wouldn’t have produced anyway.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2024-02-01/uk-wind-farms-overstate-their-output-make-millions-big-take

OFGEM are investigating.

UK Regulator Probes Wind Power Overstatement

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-02-01/ofgem-investigates-energy-giants-for-wind-power-overstatement

Listen the podcast on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/1WPBPYH25BwjqFBnOOiEJS?si=GM7hMIV9RbGse4hfzu3-7g

Edit: an alternative article on the subject from WindPower Monthly

https://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/1860371/uk-energy-regulator-ofgem-probes-claim-wind-farm-operators-overestimated-output

JKenH

Allocation Round 6

While the maximum strike prices for Offshore wind have been reported on the G&E News thread, I don’t recall seeing the prices for all the other technologies, so here they are.





https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65e867c162ff48001a87b252/cfd-ar6-budget-notice.pdf

These are, of course, 2012 prices. £73, in today’s money, equates to £102/MWh for offshore wind and £85/MWh for solar. Tidal stream and solar Wave are over £350/MWh. 

Meanwhile OFGEM have warned that NetZero costs could hit the poorest the hardest. 

Energy bills: Net zero costs could hit poorest hardest, warns Ofgem

Ofgem also highlighted the risk of the substantial cost of investing in cleaner energy unfairly burdening lower income consumers, who can't afford to invest in the technology or alter their behaviours to reduce their costs. The regulator has called for input "to work out the steps we need to take to guard against the harmful impacts of future price shocks, to ensure that the debt burden doesn't leave us with an unsustainable situation which will lead to higher bills in the future, and to look at how we can better support consumers now and in the future as the market evolves".

https://www.express.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/1876127/net-zero-costs-could-hit-poorest-hardest-warns-ofgem

Edit: correction - solar Wave

michaels

edit, misread

JKenH

michaels said:

Isn't the 64 the relevant figure for offshore wind?

And I assume onshore wind needs no support as it is not mentioned....

 The £64 you quoted is for Onshore/Remote Island wind which is in Pot 1 competing for a much smaller budget of £120m p.a. along with Energy from Waste with CHP, Hydro (>5MW and <50MW), Landfill Gas, Sewage Gas, and Solar Photovoltaic (PV) (>5MW) whereas Offshore wind is on its own in Pot 3 with an £800m p.a. Onshore wind will therefore receive relatively little, if any, support

JKenH

New gas power plants needed to stop blackouts, Claire Coutinho to say

The UK risks blackouts unless it builds new, gas-fired power stations, Energy Security Secretary Claire Coutinho will warn later.

The new stations will replace existing plants, many of which are aging and will soon be retired.

But the government says the CO2 produced will not be captured - a measure which limits climate change.

That could threaten a legally binding commitment to cut carbon emissions to net zero by 2050, critics say. 

The government said new gas power stations were needed to have a safe and reliable back up for days when renewables like wind and solar didn't deliver. PM Rishi Sunak said he would not "gamble with our energy security".

It says it expects more and more of the UK's electricity to come from renewable power in the future but says it cannot be relied on completely.

So, as existing gas power stations are retired, they will need to be replaced with new ones, better suited to the requirements of an increasingly decarbonised energy system.

The new plants will be capable of operating efficiently for just an hour or two at a time to fill in the gaps from other power sources, the government said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68538951

michaels

In theory if the economics makes sense to have standby gas generation for the smaller and smaller windows not covered by RE then in terms of overall co2 I can't see it being a big problem.

I guess what worries me is that once you have gas capacity it will 'crowd out' storage and demand management as strategies to deal with ow RE periods because it will put a cap on electricity prices.

1961Nick

michaels said:

In theory if the economics makes sense to have standby gas generation for the smaller and smaller windows not covered by RE then in terms of overall co2 I can't see it being a big problem.

I guess what worries me is that once you have gas capacity it will 'crowd out' storage and demand management as strategies to deal with ow RE periods because it will put a cap on electricity prices.

The storage business is nowhere near mature enough to cope with multiple windless hours let alone days. It's not obvious yet which (if any) technology will be the winner going forward.