Landlord responsibilities on private rentals.

Asdeane

I would be interested to here others thoughts on Landlord responsibilities, in particular. Currently we are looking to move after 16 wonderful years at our home ( we treated it as our home, proud to have called it home, despite in not being owned by us ). Having looked at a number of properties all of which have had either log burners or open fireplaces of which the former we've enjoyed at our current home we have been advised by at least 3 agencies that we are responsible for cleaning of the chimney annually.

However, we pointed out to the agents that in fact section 11 of the tenancy act 1985 makes it a legal responsibility of the landlord to ensure they do this annually. Their response was that this was not correct and continued to advise this was our responsibility?

This is what I found on the subject, should we be challenging this? More importantly how many tenants are paying these fees to agencies when in fact they ought to be reclaiming these charges back..

Under Section 11 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985, the Landlord is legally responsible for ensuring the safety, working and servicing of all heating and hot water installations. Although the wording can seem ambiguous, this also refers to open fires, Rayburns, Agas, coal and wood burning stoves. This responsibility includes all flues and ventilation, therefore under this Act, it is the Landlord’s responsibility to have all chimneys swept annually in a rental property.

We know many Landlords who believe that if the tenant uses the fire, they should be liable but unfortunately the landlord cannot contract out of this responsibility. Even if a tenancy agreement were reworded to state that a tenant is responsible, this would not stand up in the courts. Given that a chimney fire could potentially cause considerable damage to a property, it should give Landlord’s piece of mind to know that a chimney is being regularly cleaned and inspected.

Thank you for listening
Tony Deane

Comms69

I don't believe the act specifies how often it should be cleaned. Rather that it needs to be maintained to a good standard

theartfullodger

Asdeane wrote: »

..................... we have been advised by at least 3 agencies that we are responsible for cleaning of the chimney annually.

However, we pointed out to the agents that in fact section 11 of the tenancy act 1985 makes it a legal responsibility of the landlord to ensure they do this annually. ...............

Err no it doesn't: Or, more precisely, where in s11 does it specify frequency of landlord having chimney cleaned? £25 to an agreed housing charity if it's there...

I refer you to Warren V Keen 1954
https://swarb.co.uk/warren-v-keen-ca-1954/

In which the wonderful Lord Denning stated (& thus ruled..)

The tenant must take proper care of the place. He must, if he is going away for the winter, turn off the water and empty the boiler. He must clean the chimneys, where necessary, and also the windows. He must mend the electric light when it fuses. He must unstop the sink when it is blocked by his waste. In short, he must do the little jobs about the place which a reasonable tenant would do. In addition, he must, of course, not damage the house, wilfully or negligently; and he must see his family and guests do not damage it: and if they do, he must repair it.’ and ‘if the house falls into disrepair through fair wear and tear or lapse of time, or for any reason not caused by him, the tenant is not liable to repair it

Which country are you in, please? NI, Wales, Scotland??

AdrianC

Asdeane wrote: »

( we treated it as our home, proud to have called it home, despite in not being owned by us )

It was your home. Home is a mindset, not some documentation at the land registry.

Having looked at a number of properties all of which have had either log burners or open fireplaces of which the former we've enjoyed at our current home we have been advised by at least 3 agencies that we are responsible for cleaning of the chimney annually.

And that's their prerogative.
There's no way they can enforce it, of course, any more than they can enforce minimum frequencies for hoovering or cleaning the toilet.

However, we pointed out to the agents that in fact section 11 of the tenancy act 1985 makes it a legal responsibility of the landlord to ensure they do this annually. Their response was that this was not correct and continued to advise this was our responsibility?

They're right.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/70/section/11

No mention at all of flues or chimneys.

Under Section 11 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985, the Landlord is legally responsible for ensuring the safety, working and servicing of all heating and hot water installations.

Correct.

Although the wording can seem ambiguous, this also refers to open fires, Rayburns, Agas, coal and wood burning stoves. This responsibility includes all flues and ventilation

Correct.

therefore under this Act, it is the Landlord’s responsibility to have all chimneys swept annually in a rental property.

And there you've totally leapt past the legislation.

An annual flue clean is simply not needed to maintain the stove or flue in good working order. It may never be needed, depending on how you use the stove. Keep the flue temperature up, and it won't need regular cleaning at all. But the landlord can still ask you to clean it annually. They cannot enforce it, though - just that if it hasn't been cleaned within the last year at the end of your tenancy, they can deduct the cost of cleaning from your deposit - and even that may be deemed to be unenforceable, since it could have been cleaned 364 days before the end of your tenancy.

bouicca21

In days of yore, I.e. when i was a child, we had an open fire for heating. I can’t remember how often the chimney was cleaned but it certainly wasn’t every year. I suppose it depends on the residue from whatever is being burned - do wood burners create more soot than coal/coke?

AdrianC

bouicca21 wrote: »

In days of yore, I.e. when i was a child, we had an open fire for heating. I can’t remember how often the chimney was cleaned but it certainly wasn’t every year. I suppose it depends on the residue from whatever is being burned - do wood burners create more soot than coal/coke?

No, less, usually - because the flue can be run hotter, and because they're usually a smooth-walled and fairly straight stainless steel flue, rather than a convoluted brick chimney.

Davesnave

bouicca21 wrote: »

- do wood burners create more soot than coal/coke?

Many variables. Depends on:

• type of wood
• dryness of the wood
• whether the fire is 'slumbered' overnight
• how efficient the wood burner is
• whether the operator knows what they're doing

We run our wood burner from November to mid April. While the flue is still fine in the spring, the bird cowl on top always needs cleaning by then, so we have an annual sweep. This is despite having one of the most efficient stoves on the market and wood that's fully seasoned and dry.

It works out at about £1 a week for this, or roughly half a boiler service, also done annually.

Sorry, we have no experience of burning coal. Our neighbours do, though, and they also have an annual sweep.

G_M

theartfullodger wrote: »

Err no it doesn't: Or, more precisely, where in s11 does it specify frequency of landlord having chimney cleaned? £25 to an agreed housing charity if it's there...

I refer you to Warren V Keen 1954
https://swarb.co.uk/warren-v-keen-ca-1954/

In which the wonderful Lord Denning stated (& thus ruled..)

Which country are you in, please? NI, Wales, Scotland??

You're right, of course artful, that Dening was one in a thousand. Unfortunately your logic falls down. The case of Warren V Keen where you quote Denning pre-dates the LL & Tenant Act so the Act would take precedent over Dennings ruling in 1954.

However, others' points regarding the need for and frequency of sweeping/cleaning may be valid.


Though there is also an argument that an annual safety check should be undertaken since both an open fire, or stove/aga, produce 'gases', and thus fall under the gas safety check rules....


there's a lot of ambiguity and misunderstanding with regard to chimneys, and I don't know the categorical answer.


https://www.landlordlawblog.co.uk/2018/12/05/landlord-asks-clarity-responsible-cleaning-chimneys/

Davesnave

If I was a landlord, I'd factor chimney sweeping into the rent I was charging, so I could be sure the flue was being cleaned properly.


From experience, some sweeps are next to useless and DIY by tenants would carry the risk of a liner being damaged.

Slithery

Davesnave wrote: »

If I was a landlord, I'd factor chimney sweeping into the rent I was charging, so I could be sure the flue was being cleaned properly.

From experience, some sweeps are next to useless and DIY by tenants would carry the risk of a liner being damaged.

The correct answer

G_M

The guidance issued in ralation to the Tenant Fees act says:

Q: Can I ask a tenant to pay for chimney sweeping services?



No. Under the ban, landlords or letting agents cannot require tenants to pay for the services of a third party, including chimney sweeping services. If the tenants prefer to employ the services of a third party, they will be responsible for any associated costs. Landlords have a duty to ensure the property is maintained safely and should consider the potential risks associated with chimneys. If the tenancy agreement prohibits tenants from using a fireplace or to have the chimney swept and the tenants failed to comply with the restriction or obligation and this constitutes a loss to the landlord i.e. causes damage or additional expense, the landlord may seek to recoup this loss from the tenancy deposit.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/819635/TFA_Tenant_Guidance_190722.pdf