Is education in the UK a scam ?

Samsonite1

Jsacker wrote: »

I'm curious but how did your colleague perform in the job role itself? Did they carry on a career in this line of work (in or out of the company)? Did they get let go/leave after being found out?

Graduate roles are usually about learning on the job so I personally don't see much issue letting in a few MS Office-educated graduates on the books if they have potential/scope. In fact I think it is very important to do so!

He was terrible at the job (software engineer). He was bored and messed around, distracting everyone else because he could not do the job. He left because he was getting found out and realised he was causing issues for everyone. He tried learning but could not grasp systems design, database design, complex code, mathematical modelling, etc. The problem is, if you don't cover this stuff and pass exams in it (and practicals), there is no proof that you can do it. MS office is not going to help much, in fact on our course, they assumed you could use this kind of software already.

Different standards for sure. My course had 36 lectures per week, but some courses only had 4. At least I felt I got value for money!

Samsonite1

Jsacker wrote: »

Yea ok! I had to ask because it wasn't clear if they had failed or you weren't happy that they made the bill. That is the risk that an employer takes when taking on someone with a watered-down course.

I've known a few people who took a watered-down course like your MS Office example and they've actually excelled in their profession. Happened to me as well. I have a watered-down maths degree but I work with Oxford/Cambridge maths graduates (2:1 or 2:2 standard so not the cream of the crop) and hold my own. But the role has a bit more emphasis on the "soft skills" side which was probably one of my university modules :rotfl:

You are right there - I think attitude actually goes a long way and education gives you a start, but if you have attitude and aptitude you will go further regardless - but you also need opportunity. My university careers service helped me get my first job - I was a bit lost on how to get a good job - the job centre did not understand what I wanted to do, but thankfully the careers service did and I have to give them credit for getting me started (pay was actually rubbish, but experience and career path were good).

adindas

Samsonite1 wrote: »

Different standards for sure. My course had 36 lectures per week, but some courses only had 4. At least I felt I got value for money!

[FONT=&quot]I think many people who are ranting about UK higher education is a scam are those who are taking useless degrees. Finishing their degrees they are expecting to get a job using their degrees, but instead they end up working in the areas which do not need degree at all. Now they are ending up getting older. They could have worked in the areas which do not need degrees much earlier in their careers and end up getting better using a natural progression ladder. Now they will witness their managers, their old school friends have become a store manager without degrees, while they are still stacking items on the shelves with university degrees.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]But if this has happened who do you want to blame? Many decades ago, there are very little information regarding these useless degrees vs degrees in demand in the UK. But since recently, even more than a decade ago, this sort of information is already abundant online. It is just that some people do not want to learn.[/FONT]

Samsonite1

adindas wrote: »

[FONT=&quot]I think many people who are ranting about UK higher education is a scam are those who are taking useless degrees. Finishing their degrees they are expecting to get a job using their degrees, but instead they end up working in the areas which do not need degree at all. Now they are ending up getting older. They could have worked in the areas which do not need degrees much earlier in their careers and end up getting better using a natural progression ladder. Now they will witness their managers, their old school friends have become a store manager without degrees, while they are still stacking items on the shelves with university degrees.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]But if this has happened who do you want to blame? Many decades ago, there are very little information regarding these useless degrees vs degrees in demand in the UK. But since recently, even more than a decade ago, this sort of information is already abundant online. It is just that some people do not want to learn.[/FONT]

I think there are a few layers to this. I know that a lot of students are guided by what they did well in at school and this can be related to what they are interested in too. If they are into the arts, they may well branch off into a degree that is a natural progression and interest to them, but may not be ideal for a good career.

It is worth remembering that in cases like this, the students may not meet the entry requirements to do the "hard" or lucrative degrees because they are unlikely to have done A-level Maths, Sciences, etc. This means that to do such degrees, would require further learning and qualification, which is difficult if they are subjects that they did not enjoy at school.

A-levels are the traditional entry point to university and you have to decide which 3 or 4 (usually) subjects to do. If you do not pick subjects that meet the entry requirements for specific degrees then you will not really have much of a chance in doing those degrees.

I remember my school gave us a piece of homework (to help decide on A-levels), to go into the school library and use this computer system (this was in the 90s) which allowed us to look up specific degree courses at specific universities. They wanted us to look at entry requirements for degrees that we wanted to do and think about careers. It was not exactly a major effort on the school's part, but retrospectively, it was very useful in choosing A-levels, which bridged the gap to university and careers.

Manxman_in_exile

Samsonite1 wrote: »

I think there are a few layers to this. I know that a lot of students are guided by what they did well in at school and this can be related to what they are interested in too. If they are into the arts, they may well branch off into a degree that is a natural progression and interest to them, but may not be ideal for a good career.

It is worth remembering that in cases like this, the students may not meet the entry requirements to do the "hard" or lucrative degrees because they are unlikely to have done A-level Maths, Sciences, etc. This means that to do such degrees, would require further learning and qualification, which is difficult if they are subjects that they did not enjoy at school.

A-levels are the traditional entry point to university and you have to decide which 3 or 4 (usually) subjects to do. If you do not pick subjects that meet the entry requirements for specific degrees then you will not really have much of a chance in doing those degrees.

I remember my school gave us a piece of homework (to help decide on A-levels), to go into the school library and use this computer system (this was in the 90s) which allowed us to look up specific degree courses at specific universities. They wanted us to look at entry requirements for degrees that we wanted to do and think about careers. It was not exactly a major effort on the school's part, but retrospectively, it was very useful in choosing A-levels, which bridged the gap to university and careers.

You're right.


And at least your school gave you some help! My school (I'm talking about the 1970s and it was by no means a bad school) gave us no guidance whatsoever when choosing A-levels. And although we had "careers guidance", it wasn't much use. I remember a friend who was good at sciences and went on to become a consultant surgeon, was advised to look at TV repairing as a possible career! (Not belittling TV repairing as a job - should be much in demand from the Consumer's Rights board here - but the advice was wholly inappropriate for that individual).

adindas

Even for people who do not have A-Level in math or Physics there are still enough areas where you could study for a better prospect of getting a Job. There are alot of jobs with very good job prospects do not need A-level in Math and/or Physics. It is only that some people have chosen the easiest option, keep doing the same thing they like, they are good at even it is already well-known not to have a good job prospect. They do not bother to look beyond their usual boundaries. They have not been made aware by their parent's, teacher's that to become a famous artists, to end up in westend, to end up in Hollywood, to become a well known writers (such as J.k Rowlings, Agatha Christie, Enid Blyton, etc), to become a famous marketers (such as Seth Godin, Gary Vaynerchuk, etc) you will need to be in the extreme side plus of course "lucky". It is a such cut throat industries where only very few people will make it and average talent will not be sufficient. Some of these well known figures do not even study the subject they should be studying. J. K Rowling for instance, she did not study creative writing, literature at the universities. Seth Godin, Gary Vaynerchuk did not study marketing at the Universities. All of these well known figures become famous, not because the skills they learned from the universities but because of the extreme talents which have embedded in their genes. These kind of things could not be learned by study for a degree at the universities.

Without A-level in Math or Physics you could still study other subjects if you have average talent and capability. It does not need to be in the extreme side, like if you want to enter cut throat industries. Some young people even without degrees but in possession of average talents could train themselves or take a short course to become a computer programmer, writing coding /apps, become an internet cyber security, etc.

Other examples, you study finance, accounting, economics or even law (to some degrees if you have average talent etc) instead of studying micky mouse degrees such as say International development, Sustainable development, Sustainability, Creative writing, History, Literature, Football management, Marketing (e.g if do not have genes embedded in your chromosomes to become a successful marketer) etc. But many youngsters just choose the easiest option. There are many financial analyst working in the city without A-level in math and/or Physics, but they study the hard subjects like finance, accounting, economics rather than the easy to complete degrees. Those who have studies easy to finish degrees with soft touch, Finishing their degrees they will find a hard realities that not many employers will be using their knowledge they gain from their degrees.

Because the scheme is funded by the taxpayers, it is such a waste of taxpayers money. Especially because the student loan is not just paying the tuition fee but also maintenance to fund the student lifestyle which could be £11k pa on the top of tuition fee.

Samsonite1 wrote: »

I think there are a few layers to this. I know that a lot of students are guided by what they did well in at school and this can be related to what they are interested in too. If they are into the arts, they may well branch off into a degree that is a natural progression and interest to them, but may not be ideal for a good career.

It is worth remembering that in cases like this, the students may not meet the entry requirements to do the "hard" or lucrative degrees because they are unlikely to have done A-level Maths, Sciences, etc. This means that to do such degrees, would require further learning and qualification, which is difficult if they are subjects that they did not enjoy at school.

A-levels are the traditional entry point to university and you have to decide which 3 or 4 (usually) subjects to do. If you do not pick subjects that meet the entry requirements for specific degrees then you will not really have much of a chance in doing those degrees.

I remember my school gave us a piece of homework (to help decide on A-levels), to go into the school library and use this computer system (this was in the 90s) which allowed us to look up specific degree courses at specific universities. They wanted us to look at entry requirements for degrees that we wanted to do and think about careers. It was not exactly a major effort on the school's part, but retrospectively, it was very useful in choosing A-levels, which bridged the gap to university and careers.

Samsonite1

adindas wrote: »

If you do not have A-Level in math or Physics there are still some areas where you could study for a better prospect of getting a Job.

There are alot of job with very good job prospects do not need A-level in in math or Physics. i tis only that some people just want to do an easy option.

Without A-level in Math or Physics you could still study other subjects if they have talent and capability. Some young people even without degrees but talented could train themselves or take a short course to become a computer programmer, writing coding, become an internet cyber security, etc.

Other examples, to study finance, accounting, economics or even law (to some degrees) rather than study say International development, Sustainable development, Sustainability, Creative writing, Football management, etc. But many youngsters just choose the easiest option. There are many financial analyst working in the cities without A-level in math, but they study hard subjects like finance, accounting, economics rather than the easy to complete degrees. Finishing their degrees you will find a hard realities not many employers will be using their knowledge they gain from their degrees.

I am not saying people should do degrees to get a good job at all, but that there are plenty of degrees with very little job prospects and sometimes there should be a consideration of job prospects before studying anything you fancy. It should be ok to study what you want, but as it is expensive, if you choose a degree with little in the way of job prospects then you cannot complain so much about it. As you point out, you can go down a different path of vocational education towards a specific career and that may be the best thing to do for many people.

adindas

justcamehere5 wrote: »

But I pay monthly fees off my salary and I will end up paying more if I am a high-earner, which I will be. They don't do that and will still be as good earner as me. Crazy.

Yeah they do it through high taxation, which is the same here LOL.

justcamehere5 wrote: »

Not sure why you are hating me so much. I work crazy hours and I am in the high 60s at age 23 so I give a good chunk away in the Basic and Higher tax rate, which I am fine with.
!

LilElvis wrote: »

Consistency is all when you post. So which is it?
Or:
In one post you hope to be a higher-rate tax payer and then you say that you already are. Fantasist.

[FONT=&quot]The OP is getting caught??[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Ask doctors, dentists, ask the people working in the city, big five accountancy firms. Ask engineers who are working in BAE, Airbus or Big Engineering Consultancies, Contractors, How many of them will say the tuition fee in the UK is scam?? Keep in mind many of these big companies are sending their employees to do further learning at Uni on part time basis. If higher education in the UK is a scam why these big employers bother to spend money to pay the tutition fee for their employees to study at the university??
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ask people with degrees working stacking items on the shelves in major retailers, supermarkets. Most (if not) all of them will say degrees in the UK are a scam.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Many people who are ranting about the student loan repayment are those who got useless degrees and they try to express their dissatisfaction becasuse of their own fault.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So, where the OP is sitting ??? To me is clear .... But in the internet people could easily say eveything including their fantasy. But if you are not carefull you might be getting caught contradictory to what you had said before...
[/FONT]

Samsonite1

adindas wrote: »

[FONT=&quot]The OP is getting caught??[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Ask doctors, dentists, ask the people working in the city, big five accountancy firms. Ask engineers who are working in BAE, Airbus or Big Engineering Consultancies, Contractors, How many of them will say the tuition fee in the UK is scam?? Keep in mind many of these big companies are sending their employees to do further learning at Uni on part time basis. If higher education in the UK is a scam why these big employers bother to spend money to pay the tutition fee for their employees to study at the university??
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ask people with degrees working stacking items on the shelves in major retailers, supermarkets. Most (if not) all of them will say degrees in the UK are a scam.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Many people who are ranting about the student loan repayment are those who got useless degrees and they try to express their dissatisfaction becasuse of their own fault.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So, where the OP is sitting ??? To me is clear .... But in the internet people could easily say eveything including their fantasy. But if you are not carefull you might be getting caught contradictory to what you had said before...
[/FONT]

For completeness:

Someone with a degree, stacking shelves, will not pay anything - the debt will be there, but they will not pay for it unless they ever earn over £20k (I think is the current rate?).

Someone earning £60k per year will pay off a £30k loan in under 10 years (assuming they had not already paid any off).

Someone earning £100k will pay a £30k loan off in 4-5 years (assuming they had not already paid any off).

It works surprisingly well because at the low end you pay nothing and when you get big pay rises or bonuses you pay big chunks off, but you never get used to having a lot more money, but you live within your means. When you pay off your student loan, it is like having a decent pay rise.

I would much prefer that everyone got grants and no loans, but having been through it, the system works. As I say, if you are a low earner you will not pay a penny. You can stay under 20k and never pay if you want. Then it is gradual if you do pay. It is never a burden with any risk. Not many people seem to understand how it works?

adindas

Samsonite1 wrote: »

For completeness:

Someone with a degree, stacking shelves, will not pay anything - the debt will be there, but they will not pay for it unless they ever earn over £20k (I think is the current rate?).

The current threshold is increasing to £25,725. With lower threshold is already more than 50% people do not pay their student loan back. Let alone with higher threshold.

It is such a waste of taxpayer’s money for those who are just doing degrees at the universities for fun to try a student life and getting loan for maintenance up to £11k tax free on the top of tuition fee for up to four years.

This is actually where the incentive of study at the university to do easy to get micky mouse degrees is coming from for those who do not actually have talent to study at the universities.

You might have spent 4x£9,250 for tutition pay and 4x£11,000 for maintenance which equate £81k in total. But If you are doing a job that will pay you less than £25,725 you will not pay a single penny back anyway.