4 days until POPLA appeal deadline

spiritus

We received a PCN from Euro Car Parks for overstaying the 3 hr limit by 50 mins.

Appeal to ECP was rejected (no surprise) and I was about to start formulating an appeal to POPLA but, and please don't bite my head off, but it seems a lot more involved than I had originally anticipated.

I know there is tons of content on here but presumably each appeal has to be customised to individual circumstances which isn't as easy as finding a standard template appeal and submitting it.

In all fairness, the driver DID overstay by 50 mins although they were shopping/browsing at the retail units on site with friends during that period.

I have looked at some other appeals and many of them involve points being argued that do not apply to us.

Only points I can think of would be

Landowner authority

Planning permission for signage and ANPR totem (read somewhere that planning permission was needed but local council confirmed to me today that with private land no planning permission is needed)

Pointing out to POPLA that driver was a genuine customer (though not confident this is relevant to them at all)

Pursuing retail outlets on site to get notice cancelled (already tried one and was rejected-one more to try)

Sorry to sound so deflated but I think I read on this forum that POPLA usually reject appeals anyway so then we're all left in the same position of waiting to see if ECP take it to court AND I believe they can pursue this for 6 years after (?)

The_Deep

There are thousands of "oven ready" appeals here.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4488337/popla-decisions

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP, it can cause the scammer extra costs and work.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.[/FONT]

Fruitcake

As above, there are loads of points that will normally apply. In addition, PoPLA codes last 32 days so you have longer than you think.

These are the normal points to use in a PoPLA appeal so pick all that apply plus any others you can find.

It's a copy and paste and tweak for each point. Include your own pics of the site and signage including the entrance to support your case.

Not the landowner
no standing to issue charges in their own name (no contract with the landowner)
Inadequate signage
Non-PoFA compliant NTK.
BPA CoP failures

As for this, "Planning permission for signage and ANPR totem (read somewhere that planning permission was needed but local council confirmed to me today that with private land no planning permission is needed)" that is completely and utterly wrong.

Get onto the planning department and ask if planning permission for the scameras and advertising consent for the signs exist. Not having the latter is a criminal offence (but I believe only the council can pursue this). In addition, the latter cannot be applied retrospectively.

Le_Kirk

Try to find out from the retail units who the landowner is and point out to the retailers that neither you nor your friends and family can afford to shop there in future if every purchase comes with a £100 surcharge. Other retail units are available for you to visit and part with your money and they need to rethink their strategy if they think that 3 hours is long enough to shop!

MistyZ

A group of people spending 3 hours and 50 minutes shopping and browsing is just what retailers want! Sounds ideal to me, including the important browsing or 'research' as I prefer to call it. A taste for that kind of sociable, leisurely shopping keeps customers in the physical stores rather than buying online.

Were items / refreshments purchased? Were there specific items you were considering and checking out? Is this somewhere any or all of you have spent money at in the past? Did you enjoy yourselves? All that is grist for your mill in a determined landowner complaint - lay it all on the line and insist that the landowner cancel this PCN. Don't identify the driver though, use the royal 'we'.

The two things you need to do is a) identify the landowner and b) be prepared to be persistent if the first complaint doesn't bring results quickly. Find that landowner ASAP.

spiritus

Fruitcake wrote: »

As for this, "Planning permission for signage and ANPR totem (read somewhere that planning permission was needed but local council confirmed to me today that with private land no planning permission is needed)" that is completely and utterly wrong.

Get onto the planning department and ask if planning permission for the scameras and advertising consent for the signs exist. Not having the latter is a criminal offence (but I believe only the council can pursue this). In addition, the latter cannot be applied retrospectively.

I already tried the planning department earlier today. They hummed and hawed before recommending I speak to the Highways department.

Highways then told me as it was private land then the landowner can put any sign up that they want.


It's taken me a few hours for this statement to percolate through my BS filter.

I recalled my search last night on my local authority's planning portal where the main supermarket on the retail park applied for advertising signage so there is a precedent for planning permission needed for the retail park regardless if it is private land or not.

This is a planning application I found from 2006 for the same site for car park signage and I am mildly hopeful it might give me enough to at least get a foothold with this point.

https://www.planningpa.bolton.gov.uk/online-applications-17/files/DFAB34AF5E084BA33691E8C6FFA3F598/pdf/75594_06-Officers_Report-38783.pdf

Presumably, if the signage granted permission in 2006 has been replaced/renewed (which it has) then this should be subject to scrutiny by the planning application officer.

I know this is a rather trivial point but sometimes a small loophole can be enough to blow apart an argument.

I'm hoping that the prospect of ECP pursuing the Keeper for the charge may be offset against the blood freezing possibility that the car park signage is unlawful and therefore car park charges collected over the last number of years are equally unlawful.

spiritus

MistyZ wrote: »

A group of people spending 3 hours and 50 minutes shopping and browsing is just what retailers want! Sounds ideal to me, including the important browsing or 'research' as I prefer to call it. A taste for that kind of sociable, leisurely shopping keeps customers in the physical stores rather than buying online.

Were items / refreshments purchased? Were there specific items you were considering and checking out? Is this somewhere any or all of you have spent money at in the past? Did you enjoy yourselves? All that is grist for your mill in a determined landowner complaint - lay it all on the line and insist that the landowner cancel this PCN. Don't identify the driver though, use the royal 'we'.

The two things you need to do is a) identify the landowner and b) be prepared to be persistent if the first complaint doesn't bring results quickly. Find that landowner ASAP.

You have hit the nail on the head.

I am fuming that I have to resort to technicalities to try and get this parking notice cancelled when the big white elephant in the room is that the driver of the vehicle was actually visiting each of the retail units on the site with friends AND spending money in some of them.

Fair enough, if there was only 1 retail unit on the park and someone spent over three hours parked there then that is reason to suspect that someone might be abusing the car park but when a retail park has approx 8 large retail units of which two serve hot food and drinks then a 3 hr 50 min stay is not THAT unreasonable.

I'm half tempted at dragging the retail units into this by claiming that they encouraged the driver and friends to linger by providing comfortable seating and/or encouraged relaxed browsing

And yes, I have identified the landowner-it is Sainsburys and I have contacted them but I was fobbed off.

Fruitcake

As I said earlier, use ALL the points that are relevant.

Both your planning department (who ARE responsible) and highways department (who have nothing to do with this) are talking borax.

Planning permission is of course required on private land otherwise anyone could build anything they wanted.
This is a minor appeal point so don't spend too much time on it. Just say in your appeal that there is no planning approval for the scameras and no advertising consent in place for the signs which is a criminal offence. Then put the scammers to prove otherwise.

Meanwhile look up government planning regulations and the Town and Country Planning Act that covers advertising consent, then quote it to the council when you tell them they how they are wrong.

Include C-m's comments in post 19 of this thread.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5539549/parking-eye-letter-before-county-court-claim

Don't forget to complain to your MP about this unregulated scam.

Coupon-mad

You need to complain to the retail park. Use the CONTACT US button on their website.

You have a full week to use the POPLA code as day 28 is NOT the last day (please no post quoting the POPLA website at us about 28 days!!).

Therefore, you have a full week for the retail park to sort it. Do the complaint right now!

MistyZ

[QUOTE=spiritus;76468105_I_have_identified_the_landowner-it_is_Sainsburys_and_I_have_contacted_them_but_I_was_fobbed_off.[/QUOTE]

Are you sure Sainsburys owns the car park? I thought their car parks just served their stores ... I may well be wrong.
If you are sure, have you gone to the top? Don't take 'no' for an answer at this stage.

Mr Mike Coupe Chief Executive

Email: mike.coupe@sainsburys.co.uk

spiritus

MistyZ wrote: »

Are you sure Sainsburys owns the car park? I thought their car parks just served their stores ... I may well be wrong.
If you are sure, have you gone to the top? Don't take 'no' for an answer at this stage.

Mr Mike Coupe Chief Executive

Email: mike.coupe@sainsburys.co.uk

Pretty sure yes. I have already emailed Mike and his assistant said no dice.

I was wondering if anyone has successfully challenged the accuracy of the ANPR machine/camera?

Considering that their charge is ALL about the time entered and time left I would have thought that ECP could be challenged on proving the camera's clock was correctly calibrated that day etc etc