Upside down Fluttered ticket in private car park

user_1940

Hello everyone. I am at the POPLA stage already (before I discovered this thread). I've read the newbie stuff and tried to search for similar things but I'll be honest there is a huge amount of stuff to read with similar but different variables.

I purchased a ticket for a private car park and I either put the ticket upside down or the wind blew it upside down (first time this has ever happened).

I didn't get anything on my windscreen, just a "Parking Charge Notice to Registered Keeper" with photographic evidence of my ticket upside down in the windscreen. I appealed the "invoice" via their online thing saying that the wind must have blown it and attached a photo of the ticket clearly showing the same serial number and the fact that the ticket was valid at time of alleged "breach of contract". I also commented on the fact that the "traffic warden" should have been able to determine whether the ticket was valid by the serial number and their computer system.

CUP Enforcement (BPA registered) responded saying "Whilst we appreciate your concerns and comments raised, however, there was no valid permit displayed at the time of the contravention at the above location. In order for the ticket to be valid, it must clearly be on display and presented in the correct manner. It is the responsibility of the driver before departing from the vehicle to ensure that these conditions are met. Unfortunately, during the time of the observation the permit was not displayed correctly. Therefore a charge was incurred."

Usually I'd just pay as the £60 raised to £100 "fine" isn't worth my time but as I actually paid for the parking and proven the ticket was valid (I still have the ticket) I'm just kinda mad and I've decided to fight it. It seems this happens frequently with varying degrees of success.

I am collecting evidence and what I will reply to POPLA. The signage at the place says "Unauthorised, incorrectly parked vehicles not displaying a valid permit, or vehicles parked in the wrong bays or in a restricted area, on double yellow lines or blocking or parked on access will receive a parking charge notice (PCN)".

It doesn't even say "clearly displaying with time and date" etc. Just displaying a valid permit which I have proven I did (although upside down). I can post redacted pictures of everything.

I am saying no breach of Terms and Conditions happened as I had a valid permit displayed. I'll probably also say no damages to Landowner occurred as permit was purchased.

Is this enough to appeal to POPLA? Feels like there should be a fairly boilerplate response to this.

The_Deep

Masses of reading here.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=fluttering+ticket+parking&form=IENTHT&pc=EUPP_ACTE&mkt=en-gb&httpsmsn=1&msnews=1&refig=b87d3aa95f494159839f44ae3740a27c&sp=2&qs=AS&pq=fluttering+ticket+&sk=AS1&sc=8-18&cvid=b87d3aa95f494159839f44ae3740a27c

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP, it can cause the scammer extra costs and work.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.[/FONT]

Fruitcake

Get pics of the site and signage including the entrance if you haven't already, especially signs in obscure places, damaged, hidden by foliage etcetera.

Use all the points available to you from post 3 of the NEWBIES and post your draft here before submitting it.

Include frustration of contract because the scammers knew, or should have known their tickets are not fit for purpose.

I'm guessing you revealed the driver's identity in your appeal so you won't be able o include non-PoFA compliant NTK.

Have a look at this blog, especially the judge's comments about non adhesive tickets.

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/search?q=sticky

Incidentally, how do you know the parking operative didn't bounce up and down on the car to make the ticket turn over?

Coupon-mad

Is this enough to appeal to POPLA?

No. But we are NOT saying don't try, and not saying to pay!

Feels like there should be a fairly boilerplate response to this.

No, because this alone is unlikely to win at POPLA, who will say the signs were clear and you parked in breach. We have no template for losing appeal points.

We have templates for winning POPLA points, in the 3rd post of the NEWBIES thread.

Have you only had a windscreen PCN, and no 'notice to keeper' in the post?

However, did you blow the 100% winning position that a registered keeper had, when faced with a windscreen PCN, by saying who was driving in the appeal?

Fruitcake

Coupon-mad wrote: »

No. But we are NOT saying don't try, and not saying to pay!

No, because this alone is unlikely to win at POPLA, who will say the signs were clear and you parked in breach. We have no template for losing appeal points.

We have templates for winning POPLA points, in the 3rd post of the NEWBIES thread.

Have you only had a windscreen PCN, and no 'notice to keeper' in the post?

However, did you blow the 100% winning position that a registered keeper had, when faced with a windscreen PCN, by saying who was driving in the appeal?

This was a postal NTK with hand held camera "evidence", but it looks like the OP made a driver appeal.:(

user_1940

I didn't have a Windscreen PCN - just This letter to Registered Keeper.
I don't believe I have stated who was the driver, just that I am the registered keeper and I purchased the ticket. It seems that the charge will fall on me eventually no?

My POPLA appeal is basically this:
The signage at the private car park states "Incorrectly parked vehicles not displaying a valid permit...will receive a parking notice (PCN)". A valid permit was purchased and displayed fulfilling the terms and conditions. It however appears that the permit was upside down when the enforcement officer determined the breach of Terms and Conditions. CUP Enforcement state that the permit was invalid due to the ticket being upside down. I don't believe the Terms and Conditions were breached as a valid ticket was purchased and displayed. I appealed and sent proof that the ticket was valid at the time. It is not clearly communicated that placement/orientation of the ticket can make it void.

I have included their picture of the upside down ticket clearly showing the serial number, a picture of the Letter to Registered Keeper which has the time and date of the "offence" and the purchased ticket with matching serial number and start/end time and a picture of their signage with their "Terms and conditions"

I didn't see anything in post #3 which matches my particular case. I did see a successful (and I think unsuccessful POPLA case). The successful one was this:

The operator has issued the PCN on the basis that the parking ticket was incorrectly displayed. The operator has provided photographs of the appellant’s vehicle parked at the location with the PCN attached to the windscreen. Within the photograph the upside down parking ticket is visible on the dashboard. The appellant states that he purchased a parking ticket and therefore, there is no financial loss to the landowner. The appellant states that the charge is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and there is not contract between the landowner and the operator. The appellant has provided a copy of ticket which was purchased on 27 December 2015 at 17:40 and expired at 19:40. The appellant states that the signage is inadequate, unclear and poorly worded. The appellant states that the operators photograph showing the car park is taken in clear daylight, not the dark and rainy conditions the car was parked in. Section 18.3 of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice states, “You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle. Keep a record of where all the signs are. Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand.” The operator has provided evidence of signage at the location stating “vehicles need to display clearly a valid ticket i.e. not face down or expired, if a vehicle is parked without authorisation or has breached any parking conditions that apply parking charges will apply. A parking charge notice will cost £100.00”. The operator has failed to provide evidence to demonstrate that the signage is visible during the hours of darkness and I am unable to ascertain that the appellant would have been aware of the terms and conditions at the time of parking. As the burden of proof lies with the operator to demonstrate that the PCN was issue correctly, I must allow this appeal.

I think he got his appeal due to the fact that the signage may not have been visible at night when he parked?

Fruitcake

That looks nothing like a forum assisted PoPLA appeal.

It should include, but not limited to,

Non PoFA complaint NTK,
Not the landowner
No standing to issue charges in their own name
Inadequate signage (the signage template point in post 3 is longer than the whole of your previous post. Use all of it.)
Frustration of contract (non adhesive ticket not fit for purpose)

… anything and everything else relevant.

What happened when you complained to the landowner?

Don't forget to complain to your MP as well about this unregulated scam.

Does the signage say which way up the ticket has to be displayed? Does it mention that even if the ticket is correctly displayed, a charge will be liable if it curls up or is blown over when closing the door?
Is the charge on the signage clear and prominent and in larger font than the rest of the sign.

Post your draft here for checking before you submit it.

user_1940

I was filling out the fields in the PoPLA appeals forms. Do I include the above under the "other" section?

I have not complained to the Landowner - I suspect he's in on it.

I'll complain to my MP!

I just don't know if it's worth the hassle to go through all this. I've already spent too much time digging through posts and appeals from up to five years ago.

Coupon-mad

I was filling out the fields in the PoPLA appeals forms.

Stop.

Do I include the above under the "other" section?

Yes but you don't need to ask this stuff; it's already set out in the NEWBIES thread post #3 for you. This is meant to be pretty easy. It is COPY & PASTE from our templates - you seem to have missed them.

I am the registered keeper and I purchased the ticket. It seems that the charge will fall on me eventually no?

NO, if they didn't comply with para 9 of the POFA in the NTK (you can check the wording against Schedule 4 para 9).

The POFA is linked in the NEWBIES thread, or easy to Google.

They can also fail on not providing 'adequate notice' on the signage.

appeals from up to five years ago.

The only 5 y old post you should read is the sticky thread. No others except from 2019.

KeithP

user_1940 wrote: »

I was filling out the fields in the PoPLA appeals forms. Do I include the above under the "other" section?

Right at the beginning of post #3 of the NEWBIES thread it says...

... don't feel you have to answer their questions, you should write a detailed appeal and attach it as a PDF along with photos (use the parking firm's own photo of the sign if the words are illegible and the £100 (or whatever) charge is not in LARGE letters.

Further down in that same post it says...

These then get saved as PDFs and uploaded to POPLA under OTHER (ONLY) - do not think you only have 2000 characters in some box on the POPLA wepage!

user_1940

So the idea is to basically dispute everything (throw the kitchen sink at them) regardless if they're actually compliant or not (for example I think their signage was ok, lots around and at the entrance etc)...in order to get them to give up