At My Wits End

Malthusian · 6 November 2019 at 10:45AM

Is there money left over in the estate after paying the funeral costs or not?

At some points you say there wasn't (e.g. writing to the creditors to tell them there is no money) and at some points you seem to say there is (referring to safeguarding funds in your own personal account, of which there shouldn't be any if 100% of the estate's funds went on the funeral).

I don't think you are deliberately being inconsistent, I think it is more that in trying to be helpful, people have jumped into advice on intermeddling or how to pay off creditors before it is 100% clear that it is relevant, which has made the thread a bit confusing.

Mackhie · 6 November 2019 at 11:03AM

Malthusian wrote: »

Is there money left over in the estate after paying the funeral costs or not?

At some points you say there wasn't (e.g. writing to the creditors to tell them there is no money) and at some points you seem to say there is (referring to safeguarding funds in your own personal account, of which there shouldn't be any if 100% of the estate's funds went on the funeral).

I don't think you are deliberately being inconsistent, I think it is more that in trying to be helpful, people have jumped into advice on intermeddling or how to pay off creditors before it is 100% clear that it is relevant, which has made the thread a bit confusing.

Unfortunately, I cannot answer this on an open forum without giving more exact figures, which introduces something of a confidentiality/security issue.

There is still money left from the bank after funeral costs etc. and the life assurances that have been paid out haven't been touched. No creditors have been paid as yet, only contacted.

Until the issues have been resolved and I know how to proceed, I (or an appointed solicitor) will distribute the estate and/or pay creditors accordingly.

Malthusian · 6 November 2019 at 11:21AM

There is still money left from the bank after funeral costs etc.

Then you have done something wrong, which was to tell the creditors in writing that there was no money when there was. Along with letting the estate's money rest in your own personal account, it doesn't look good.

The police are still correct and your brother is talking nonsense. Maladministration of an estate is a civil matter and not fraud.

It would be highly advisable to take advice from a solicitor to ensure that the surplus is distributed correctly among the creditors. The money you spend on their fees is dwarfed by the potential cost of getting it wrong.

You have intermeddled and will need to see the job through to the end. (Paying funeral costs isn't intermeddling, but withdrawing the estate's money from the estate's account into your own - money that had nothing to do with funeral costs - is.)

and the life assurances that have been paid out haven't been touched.

You need to contact the insurers with a copy of the death certificate.

If the insurers pay the benefits directly to beneficiaries then the money never enters the estate and the creditors have nothing to do with it. If however the insurers pay the benefits into the estate, it goes into the pot to pay the creditors.

Mackhie · 19 November 2019 at 10:39AM

Malthusian wrote: »

Then you have done something wrong, which was to tell the creditors in writing that there was no money when there was.

Actually, I told them that there was quite likely very little money likely to be left. Not quite the same thing and certainly not committing myself in any way. Confirmed by my solicitor!

It would be highly advisable to take advice from a solicitor to ensure that the surplus is distributed correctly among the creditors. The money you spend on their fees is dwarfed by the potential cost of getting it wrong.

Actually, the solicitor advised me NOT to have them undertake this as the costs incurred by me would be unnecessary. As for "if I get it wrong" I have also been reassured that I have followed procedure correctly and there IS NO WAY I could be penalised for following this.

withdrawing the estate's money from the estate's account into your own

as already stated numerous times I DID NOT WITHDRAW THE MONEY!!! It was done, on my behalf, without my consent or knowledge of the consequences, BY THE BANK!!!

You need to contact the insurers with a copy of the death certificate.

No I don't. Besides, they've already had them.

If the insurers pay the benefits directly to beneficiaries then the money never enters the estate and the creditors have nothing to do with it. If however the insurers pay the benefits into the estate, it goes into the pot to pay the creditors.

Rubbish! What are you trying to do? Get me incriminated?

Please! Unless you have some REAL knowledge on this subject and are fully qualified in such matters, keep your comments to yourself.

All I have seen on here are for the most part (though a few exceptions) a load of scare-mongerers and armchair experts who paraphrase from other legal blogs but don;t really have a clue.

Plus, I showed some of these comments to my solicitor and even she thought some of you were a joke!

xylophone · 19 November 2019 at 1:12PM

Rubbish! What are you trying to do? Get me incriminated?

I can assure you that where the proceeds of an insurance policy have been written in trust or a deed of gift has been executed, the proceeds are indeed paid to the beneficiaries outside the estate.

https://www.thebalance.com/must-life-insurance-be-used-to-pay-a-decedent-s-bills-3505232

I have had very recent experience of this as a relative of mine was an executor of an estate where the deceased was paying the premium of a policy the proceeds of which had been gifted - the proceeds were paid direct to the beneficiaries and did not touch the estate funds.

Malthusian · 19 November 2019 at 2:58PM

Mackhie wrote: »

Actually, the solicitor advised me NOT to have them undertake this as the costs incurred by me would be unnecessary. As for "if I get it wrong" I have also been reassured that I have followed procedure correctly and there IS NO WAY I could be penalised for following this.

The fact that your solicitor doesn't want the job or the liability (can't imagine why) does not alter the fact that administrators are liable if they distribute an estate wrongly, e.g. by not giving creditors their due proportion.

as already stated numerous times I DID NOT WITHDRAW THE MONEY!!! It was done, on my behalf, without my consent or knowledge of the consequences, BY THE BANK!!!

They managed to guess your account details at random?

Telling a bank that their customer is dead, you are administering their estate and giving them your personal bank details = withdrawing the money.

No I don't. Besides, they've already had them.

You need to establish whether the deceased's life insurance policies are part of the estate or not. Not all life insurance policies are written in trust. If the proceeds are paid into the estate they form part of the pot to pay off the creditors.

Rubbish! What are you trying to do? Get me incriminated?

Please! Unless you have some REAL knowledge on this subject and are fully qualified in such matters, keep your comments to yourself.

If you aren't interested in the facts of whether life insurance proceeds are or are not part of an estate then don't waste our time asking.

Malthusian · 19 November 2019 at 3:06PM

xylophone wrote: »

https://www.thebalance.com/must-life-insurance-be-used-to-pay-a-decedent-s-bills-3505232

This is a US website. The general principle does still apply in the UK however, notwithstanding US-specific references to state law. Not all life insurance policies are written in trust (as your relative's was). They should be but not all of them are.

If the deceased had life insurance policies the administrator needs to find out from the life insurer whether the proceeds are going into the estate as it will be part of the pot to pay off creditors if so.

xylophone · 19 November 2019 at 4:32PM

If the deceased had life insurance policies the administrator needs to find out from the life insurer whether the proceeds are going into the estate as it will be part of the pot to pay off creditors if so.

As the link explains - as you say, the principle applies in the UK as well as the US.

Not all life insurance policies are written in trust (as your relative's was).

Indeed - in my post above I said

where the proceeds of an insurance policy have been written in trust or a deed of gift has been executed, the proceeds are indeed paid to the beneficiaries outside the estate.

Mojisola · 19 November 2019 at 4:37PM

Mackhie wrote: »

Plus, I showed some of these comments to my solicitor and even she thought some of you were a joke!

It would be useful if you could tell us which posts give wrong information, according to your solicitor - most people are happy to be corrected if they are giving out inaccurate information.

Skiddaw1 · 19 November 2019 at 5:40PM

For what it is worth, I do think Malthusian is spot on with the life insurance policy advice OP. I went through it all when I was administering my deceased friend's estate. I'm no expert but the solicitor I employed confirmed my understanding (as per Malthusian's advice) was correct (in the case of my friend, the proceeds of the policy were gifted so didn't form part of the estate pot).