Do I have a case or should I just pay?

Reasonable_Person

A few days ago I received a PCN ('this PCN serves as your NTK') from Euro Car Parks for overstaying the 3hr limit in one of their car parks (Peel Centre Bracknell) by 18 mins in early October. The charge is £100/£60.

The reason the driver did this was simply that they did not know the rules had changed. They have been to this car park many times (the most recent time in April) and just didn't check the signs. It used to be a matter of paying per hour and then free after a certain time. They turned up in the evening and so assumed all was as it had been. It wasn't.

The low light may not have helped and the entrance sign does not clearly show the charge but that is really the only basis of my appeal. I'm sure ECP have landowner authority because the terms are displayed on the website of the Peel Centre itself. I can't post links but its under 'Getting Here'.

Nor do I want to contact the landowner. The driver was not using the Peel centre or adjacent shops but the cinema in town. They parked here to do so believing the old terms applied and was therefore happy to pay charges to do so if necessary. Its like you go to the barber and afterwards he tells you the charge is £100 rather than £15 and you should have checked the sign on the wall, which you didn't because you've been there dozens of times and its always been more or less the same.

Here is what the entrance looks like. The 3hr limit is there but the charge cannot be seen (paste into google maps).

@51.4155378,-0.7547859,3a,62.9y,209.41h,86.91t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sO1zRgKfBEf_aV05sfPL7mQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DO1zRgKfBEf_aV05sfPL7mQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D104.91964%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

The issue is the same - in the same car park - as the one in the thread titled 'Euro Car Parks POPLA appeal' by user 'blindsided'. Again I can't post a link.



But that person's case remains open it appears and has not responded to a private message. I also see no recent positive outcomes of POPLA reviews of cases just like this one. And though I have read ECP do not take people to court, I do not want 6 years of letters that could conceivably turn into real action at some point.

So my question is is it worth appealing based on just this one thing? Or should I just cough up and take it as lesson learned? I ask based on your experience. I really don't want to have to pay the £100 charge either. Which will be what happens if my POPLA case is unsuccessful.

Thank you.

The_Deep

Of course you do not pay, it is a scam.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]It is not a fine, it is an invoice from an ex- clamper for damages for the harm they allege they suffered when you did what you did. [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. Pay them not one penny unless a judge so orders it.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Nine times out of ten of these tickets are scams so consider complaining to your MP, it can cause the scammer extra work.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.[/FONT][/FONT]

MistyZ

You do have a case.

Signage issues do win POPLA appeals. A lot depends on the quality of the argument. Seems to me that you're already thinking along the right lines, it would certainly be good to know when the T&Cs changed.

If you're up for fighting on, make the appeal to ECP within the timeframe, using the blue template on the Newbies' thread. I know I'd fight this one - my POPLA appeal would be rather 'pretty', lots of lovely photos of inadequate signage, much of it in the same light conditions as the driver encountered.

Fruitcake

As above, send the initial appeal template in blue text from post 1 of the NEWBIES. If/when it is rejected read up on how to make a PoPLA appeal using all the relevant points available to you from post 3of the NEWBIES.

You already have Inadequate Signage and lack of Grace Periods, so have a look to see if there are any other points you can use as well such as non PoFA compliant NTK.

There are two grace periods in the BPA CoP so the keeper would split the visit up to include arrival, the driver getting out to read the signs before going back and getting passengers out, locking up etcetera. Then the parking period began. At the end of the parking period the second grace period was used to leave the site. The PoPLA appeal point would therefore include a parking period of three hours plus two grace periods adding up to 18 minutes.

Coupon-mad

Who cares about getting letters for a couple of years? I've ignored them myself.

Reasonable_Person

Thank you for the responses. Did anyone look at the streeview picture of the entrance? What did you think, would that count as inadequate?



@Misty. Regarding the time the rules changed, it must have been June or earlier because that is when the current Google Street View images are from and they show the current arrangements. That's quite a few months between the change and the offense. But since the driver had not been there since April they did not know anything had changed.


@ Fruitcake, Looking at other posts I don't think I can successfully argue grace period. For one the driver didn't check the terms whent they came in (the whole issue) and when they left the car park was pretty empty and they could drive straight out. No time is needed to pay for a ticket because that is not how the car park works (now). If it was less than the minimum 10 minutes required by the BPA it would be different.


Here is a quote from one failed POPLA appeal: "There is no requirement that the operator give a general grace period in which any breach of the terms of parking is overlooked simply because it does not occur for very long. In this case, the appellant has not provided me with any evidence or explanation as to why the motorist required a 19-minute grace period. As such, I am unable to consider this." [POPLA Decisions threat, user BreakableKitten].


Here is what Coupon-mad wrote in response:


"You needed to split the 18/19 mins and explain in detail why it took 8 minutes to drive in and find a space, park, then read the signs, then why it took 10 mins to leave after the allowed parking time expired.

Never talk about two grace periods adding up to 20 minutes because that's not true. Separate them and POPLA will sometimes agree."


There is no such explanation in this case. The reason for overstaying was complete ignorance of the rules. So I think grace period, like landowner authority, is a no-go.


I think signage is all I can rely on, possibly aided by the relatively recent change in rules. You know what would be a useful resource? A thread showing pictures of all signs that were considered inadequate in POPLA appeals and ones that were considered adequate. Then it would be easier to know where the line is according to POPLA.



@ Coupon-mad: I don't want the letters and has been said elsewhere, they could end up chasing them at some point. And as nice as you people seem I'd rather not spend more time coming back here asking about how to deal with any subsequent problems that come up after a failed POPLA appeal.

Coupon-mad

There will be no problems after a failed POPLA appeal v ECP. Never is!

Unless they change the habit of a lifetime, ECP don't sue people and you can cheerfully ignore their dross, and DRP/Zenith threatograms. But try POPLA first!

The reason the driver did this was simply that they did not know the rules had changed. They have been to this car park many times (the most recent time in April) and just didn't check the signs. It used to be a matter of paying per hour and then free after a certain time. They turned up in the evening and so assumed all was as it had been. It wasn't.

They parked here to do so believing the old terms applied and was therefore happy to pay charges to do so if necessary. Its like you go to the barber and afterwards he tells you the charge is £100 rather than £15 and you should have checked the sign on the wall, which you didn't because you've been there dozens of times and its always been more or less the same.

We agree. You have a case on that basis. Your main POPLA appeal points will be:

1. The operator didn't comply with the BPA CoP requirement to place additional prominent signs informing people familiar with the old rules at a site, that the restrictions had changed. You can find other POPLA appeals like this, already won.

2. The signs were unclear (standard template from the NEWBIES post #3).

3. The BPA grace periods were not adhered to; search 'split grace periods POPLA' on this forum as your keywords and put in a DETAILED story about driving in and finding a space and it was busy, etc. and took 8 mins. And then separately, on exit it took time to drive round and give way to pedestrians and turning/parking cars but this alone did not take more than the BPA CoP minimum of 10 mins.

4. No landowner authority (standard wording).

Did the PCN arrive by day 14?

Reasonable_Person

Alright its good to hear I have a case. Thanks. I will look for those POPLA appeals based on rule change.


I've read through the sign change stuff under newbies and should be able to handle that

The car park is huge and there are always spaces when the driver has been there before. I think the grace period is a stretch but if I appeal I may as well put it in


Is there any point appealing landowner authority when the rules are on the Peel Centre website? They obviously know about the current system.

The PCN arrived on 19th October and is dated 15th October, so yes. 4 days down the drain but I would expect nothing less.

Coupon-mad

Is there any point appealing landowner authority when the rules are on the Peel Centre website? They obviously know about the current system.

Yes 100% because POPLA won't look at third party websites and the burden will go to the PPC to have to show their contract to you and POPLA. Some forget, or give up!

Reasonable_Person

Hi guys now I have some photos. Please tell me what you think.

Entrance sign looks like this:

these need an https:// before them

i.postimg.cc/sxNcG8CT/20191025-180926.jpg

Signs within the car park look like this:


i.postimg.cc/pTVYGx20/20191025-181703.jpg

KeithP

https://postimg.cc/m17M0mD9

https://postimg.cc/cKjnCptY

Did you read that very small writing at the bottom of that second sign?



It is titled: IMPORTANT NOTICE

So important that they use the tiniest font - impossible to read without a step-ladder.