Operator under IPC code failing to address appeal points

Coupon-mad

goroaming wrote: »

Hi KeithP,
Sorry I may have inadvertently misled you. The operator is relying on the fact that sign includes the words "No Parking" but it says a whole lot more on the sign about the operator, who to pay and how much to pay for failing to comply and so on. I could post the photo of the sign for you to see? If I knew how. Does that change the comment that you made above at all?

No, it doesn't. Look at the words of the sign in PCM v Bull:

https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/04/pcm-uk-signage-does-not-create-contract.html

Doesn't matter if this is VCS or PCM (all the same, ex-clamper thug IPC members), the fact is, 'NO PARKING' is not an offer of a parking licence, however they then construct the small print.

goroaming

Hi all,
I'm trying to follow the good advice to stay calm and wait for the court summons but I'd also like to ask a couple more questions about appearing in court if that is ok?
1. Can I get my partner to do all the speaking for me in court if any is required? I just don't want to have to speak to lawyers or judges under such stressful conditions but my partner is prepared to speak for me and says it will be allowed....sorry to any lawyers or judges who might read this.
2. If someone loses a case like this is it common that they have to pay court costs or do the very good examples of witness statements that claim how unfair that is usually convince the judge not to award the operator's costs. I do expect to win and hope to win but I just want to find out the worst possible case if I lost. That is what is the largest amount of money in costs that a judge could award and is that over and above the £100 the operator is asking for.
3. The final ticket is due to be passed to the IAS soon. I could make it take longer by putting in more information and pictures that show no lights on the signs and pictures of the additional new signs. They increased the number of signs and these new signs have changed the words to take away the conflicting statements about paying for a valid ticket and "no parking". Is it worth making it drag out longer or just get it refused by the IAS as the previous one was and let them take it to court?
4. There are likely to be two tickets should I insist that they are both treated in the same case? They are both for the same alleged offense of parking in a no-parking area of the car park. Can I insist that they are considered together?
Thanks in advanced for your help. The early sticky newbie posts are really helpful in keeping the stress level down.

Coupon-mad

1. Can I get my partner to do all the speaking for me in court if any is required?

Yes, as your lay rep as long as you are there too.

2. If someone loses a case like this is it common that they have to pay court costs or do the very good examples of witness statements that claim how unfair that is usually convince the judge not to award the operator's costs. I do expect to win and hope to win but I just want to find out the worst possible case if I lost. That is what is the largest amount of money in costs that a judge could award and is that over and above the £100 the operator is asking for.

If you argue properly against the add-ons then it's £100 plus the fifty quid court fees and maybe fifty quid solicitors fees top. £200 all told, worst case scenario.

3. The final ticket is due to be passed to the IAS soon. I could make it take longer by putting in more information and pictures that show no lights on the signs and pictures of the additional new signs. They increased the number of signs and these new signs have changed the words to take away the conflicting statements about paying for a valid ticket and "no parking". Is it worth making it drag out longer or just get it refused by the IAS as the previous one was and let them take it to court?

Yes if you have already started the pointless IAS process.

4. There are likely to be two tickets should I insist that they are both treated in the same case? They are both for the same alleged offense of parking in a no-parking area of the car park. Can I insist that they are considered together?

Yes, search the forum for:

two claims? abuse of process consolidated

goroaming

In relation to the first PCN, I have received a "Demand for Payment" which I will ignore as I believe that is the correct course of action until they initiate court proceedings? They have added a £60 charge to cover the cost of debt collection is this likely to help my case in court as an attempt at double charging?

Redx

yes it will , read the thread by CEC16

and you wont get a summons , its not a criminal matter

you may get a court claim from the CCBC in Northampton , an MCOL

Coupon-mad

goroaming wrote: »

In relation to the first PCN, I have received a "Demand for Payment" which I will ignore as I believe that is the correct course of action until they initiate court proceedings? They have added a £60 charge to cover the cost of debt collection is this likely to help my case in court as an attempt at double charging?

If you are still receiving letters about one PCN and not both, you need to keep repeating the words you found that were written to cover the situation, the words about Henderson v Henderson that you found when you searched the forum for the words I advised you to search for.

You need to keep replying the same way until they consolidate the matters, before any claim arrives. It's harder work afterwards.

goroaming

Hi CM and Redx, I'm apologising again because I've probably jumped the gun again and posted too early. I've had one demand for payment for one PCN as the IAS only just decided today to dismiss the appeal for the 2nd PCN.

I did find postings that dealt with consolidation of multiple claims into just one and they refered to Henderson v Henderson but they all appeared to be at the stage of witness statements and written defence papers and I'm not at that stage yet. I will write to VCS and tell them that if they intend to pursue one or both claims against me that they should consolidate them into one and I'll use the template wording that I found on someone else's case for a witness statement as the basis of the letter telling them that not consolidating the case would be a breach of process etc.....as per that wording I found. I could post it here but I think you all do such a great job that it won't be necessary. I'm ok to take on that responsibility for myself at this stage and I'll post it if you ask or if I get some refusal that I'm not sure what to do about.
To everyone on this forum you are all real unsung hero's to ordinary people.

goroaming

I don't want to promise anything and I can't offer anything in the way of legal experience or knowledge but I do want to contribute positively to this forum if I am able to in a way that will help others not just for others to help me.

Would some form of database be useful for people on this forum? If there was a database that had a list of cases where judges found in favour of the motorist and could be used to help support arguments be helpful? I found the list of cases on the "parking prankster" website (I think he's bargepole on here) which is really useful but it didn't appear to be discriminatory and didn't have clear pointers to what arguments they support or refute to help us all select the most helpful cases easily.

I have access to a Google Drive with basically unlimited storage space and either by use of an actual database (which is actually harder as I don't have experience of using one) or by making up our own database based on a Google Spreadsheets document which could link key words and phrases and successful case based on signage or evidence that a contract could not be formed etc etc we could link that to PDF's of the case decisions for people to be able to search. You could also put in templates there. If the sticky thread linked to that it might help reduce (it might make it worse) the number of repeated enquiries that all us newbie's make and which you guys (hero's of parking fine victims) answer for us.
What do you think?

goroaming

Hi all,
I have now received the two final demands for payment with additional costs/charges etc. I created this response from examples I found on the forum and I plan to send it to the operator but I thought i'd just post it here so that the experts can make any comments that might be helpful or that they feel they want to make.

***************************************letter begins************************************
To VCS,
I am writing to you in relation to the PCN charges you have claimed against me as the keeper of vehicle (car reg) namely (PCN one) and (PCN two).

I do not recognise the legitimacy of any of these claims as detailed in written submission to you in relation to this matter. I do not accept that any contract to make the payment that you are requesting exists.

I would like to draw your attention to your obligations in relation to the consolidation of similar claims as detailed below:

"The issuing of separate claims, by the same Claimant and for essentially the same cause of action, is an abuse of the civil litigation process. The long-established case law in Henderson -v- Henderson [1843] 67 ER 313, and more recent authorities, establishes the principle that when a matter becomes the subject of litigation, the parties are required to advance their whole case. In the event that similar matters proceed to claim issue, they must be particularised as a single claim and not as multiple separate cases, otherwise (as an extreme analogy) a builder purportedly owed money by an individual customer, could file a separate claim for each brick laid.

The facts of these cases are duplicated in every respect: Claimant, Defendant, location, parking charge breach allegation, and added unrecoverable 'debt collection' and/or 'legal' costs for each case,

If you have any other claims you plan to pursue through the courts in this matter please consolidate them all into one claim as required by law."

***************************************letter ends************************************
Any feedback gratefully accepted.

Coupon-mad

Yep that looks fine.

Your other idea would be good if there were transcripts for each case but they don't exist in most cases, as people have to pay a lot for them.