Leasehold property - with Share of Freehold Interests

JonMitchell

Hi

I was looking to put an offer to a leasehold apartment in a building of 3 flats, which the estate agent advertised this apartment has a Share of Freehold Interests.

I bought the current Title Deed, both Freehold for the building and land + Leasehold for the seller.

I noticed under Property Register, section A of Leasehold Title Deed: Short particulars of the lease under which the land is held:
a.) XXX
b.) YYY

Both (a) and (b) are not the names of the current 3 flat owners, although it should have 3.

Was wondering in this case, does the flat owners still have legal Share of Freehold at all??

Under the Freehold Title Deed, under section B Proprietorship Register, The Title Absolute stated the current 3 flat owners but I am not sure if it refers to owners of Leasehold or?

Any advise from any kind soul is greatly appreciated

ThePants999

I think that that (a) and (b) you're seeing were probably the original leaseholders, when the leases were first created, and they're entirely uninteresting now. If the freehold is showing the current flat owners as proprietors, that means this almost certainly IS share of freehold.

G_M

JonMitchell wrote: »

Hi

I was looking to put an offer to a leasehold apartment in a building of 3 flats, which the estate agent advertised this apartment has a Share of Freehold Interests.

I bought the current Title Deed, both Freehold for the building and land + Leasehold for the seller.

I noticed under Property Register, section A of Leasehold Title Deed: Short particulars of the lease under which the land is held:
a.) XXX
b.) YYY

Both (a) and (b) are not the names of the current 3 flat owners, although it should have 3.

Was wondering in this case, does the flat owners still have legal Share of Freehold at all??

Under the Freehold Title Deed, under section B Proprietorship Register, The Title Absolute stated the current 3 flat owners but I am not sure if it refers to owners of Leasehold or?

Section A of the leasehold Title: "Short particulars of the lease under which the land is held" - this is the original lease and will name the original leaseholders.

Section B of the leasehold Title (Proprietorship Register) should name the current leaseholder (your seller).


The freehold Title shows the names of the 3 current leaseholders (flat owners), who also jointly own the freehold.

JonMitchell

Thanks the_pants999 and G_M.

I was looking into both the Freehold and Leasehold deeds in a bit more detail though I may not comprehend the full of it. Apologies if I am repeating my question in another way


Freehold Title Deed:
===============

Front page Register Extract: Registered Owners are Mr. AA, Miss BB and Mr CC.

All 3 named people are current flat owners.

Under Section B, Proprietorship Register, it states the Proprietors are AA, BB and CC.

Q: This then I presume as ThePants999 said, that these 3 flat owners do have a Share of Freehold for this plot of land and building?


Leasehold Title Deed:
================
Under Section A. Property Register, it states

(02.05.2001) Short particulars of the lease(s) (or under-lease(s)) under which the land is held:
a.) Mr. XXX
b.) Mrs. YYY

Q. Both Mr. XXX and Mrs. YYY are not existing flat owners but I am not sure if they still own the freehold of the land where these apartments are.

Q. To my understanding, names under this section tend to be the Freehold owners of the land, isn't it? But if the Freehold states the Proprietorship are AA, BB and CC instead of names XXX and YYY, why do they include both XXX and YYY in the lease? When will XXX and YYY be remove completely, if they no longer have any interests in the said freehold land?

Thanks again!

eddddy

JonMitchell wrote: »

Q. Both Mr. XXX and Mrs. YYY are not existing flat owners but I am not sure if they still own the freehold of the land where these apartments are.

Q. To my understanding, names under this section tend to be the Freehold owners of the land, isn't it? But if the Freehold states the Proprietorship are AA, BB and CC instead of names XXX and YYY, why do they include both XXX and YYY in the lease? When will XXX and YYY be remove completely, if they no longer have any interests in the said freehold land?

Thanks again!

It might help, if you look at it like this:

• In 2001 a lease was created between Mr XXX and Mrs YYY.

• That lease is called "The 2001 Lease between Mr XXX and Mrs YYY"

• At some point Mr AA bought the lease which is called "The 2001 Lease between Mr XXX and Mrs YYY"

• Perhaps you will later buy the lease which is called "The 2001 Lease between Mr XXX and Mrs YYY"

• It's name will never change, it will always be called "The 2001 Lease between Mr XXX and Mrs YYY"

• So you will become the owner of something called "The 2001 Lease between Mr XXX and Mrs YYY"

So Section A of the title register will refer to Mr XXX and Mrs YYY forever.


Does that help to clarify? (maybe it doesn't - but that's how it works.)



Edit to add...

This is the thing that some people get confused about...

• You are not buying a new lease.

• You are buying a 'second-hand' lease that already exists.

• If you like, you could say that you are taking over somebody else's lease

(In this case, Mr AA took over Mrs YYY's lease. And you might soon pay Mr AA to take over Mrs YYY's lease from Mr AA.)

JonMitchell

Thanks eddddy. Think I got your point.

So in essence, just to confirm, the current 3 flat owners AA, BB and CC - are co-owners of the Freehold land, with XXX and YYY no longer a part of the freehold equation?

The other issue I was thinking of is to get AA and BB, with myself CC to extend lease. Do you folks reckon it would be a straight forward situation? It seems all 3 flat owners have exactly the same lease years left.

Thanks

PS: Always good to find out with knowledgable people like you folks then to go through the legal process only to realise any implications later which can be costly for me. Greatly appreciate your help

eddddy

JonMitchell wrote: »

So in essence, just to confirm, the current 3 flat owners AA, BB and CC - are co-owners of the Freehold land, with XXX and YYY no longer a part of the freehold equation?

It's more likely that AA, BB and CC are joint freehold owners of the land and building.

(There's a frequent misconception that freeholders can only own land.)

As a leaseholder you would be the owner of an agreement (i.e. that agreement is a lease, which is a wad of paper).

That agreement gives the owner of the agreement the right to occupy part of that building for 99 years, 125 years, 999 years or whatever. (Subject to many terms and conditions.)


Based on what you've posted, it sounds like XXX and YYY have disposed of all their interests in the property, so they are completely out of the picture.

JonMitchell

Thanks Edddy!

It definitely is good to know of such

G_M

I think the easiest way to understand the two Titles is like this:

Section A of the leasehold Title: "Short particulars of the lease under which the land is held" - this is the original lease and will name the original leaseholders.

Section B of the leasehold Title (Proprietorship Register) should name the current leaseholder (your seller).

The freehold Title shows the names of the 3 current leaseholders (flat owners), who also jointly own the freehold.

JonMitchell

Thanks G_M!

I think for me, the 2 most important things would be

a.) Do I own 33% of the freehold
b.) If there is only 3 flats owning the freehold without anymore interests from XXX and YYY, then extending the lease would potentially be easier and cost effective for me? That is assuming all the other 2 flat owners are singing on the same page.

Richard_Webster

Your solicitors will need to makes sure that all three of the existing joint freeholders join in a transfer of the freehold to you and the two remaining flatowners. Occasionally one of the flatowners has disappeared or refuses to sign - so that needs to be checked.

Good idea to try to talk to the other two to make sure they understand their moral obligation to join in such a transfer- sadly it is not an easily enforceable legal obligation.