Landlord wanting his house back, various problems- advice needed please

swingaloo

Im posting on behalf of a couple of friends about a situation they are in and need advice on the way forward please.

They have been renting a property for 3.5 years. They rent from a private landlord, not through an agent. From the beginning there have been issues but they have been happy to go along with it as they were paying a vey reasonable rent and they loved the house.

The situation now is that they have just had a text message from the landlord saying that unfortunately he is having to sell the house and needs them to move out asap. He seems to be under the impression that they will just up and go but its not so simple as they need time to find somewhere else and need to stay in the area plus Xmas is coming so not an ideal time. Ive told them that there are steps the landlord needs to take to get the property back but Im unsure of the footing as they have never had a written contract.

The situation is-

The landlord seems a 'nice' happy go lucky type with the gift of the gab but he clearly knows nothing about being a landlord so Im assuming he will have no idea of what he needs to do to get them out of the property although from what they have said I would not be surprised if he was in serious financial trouble as there have been bailiffs looking for him and court orders in the last 12 months which he says he has dealt with and told them there is no need for worry.

The landlord has never given them anything in writing regarding the tenancy.
He has never protected the deposit.
He has never provided any kind of safety certificate or had any gas checks done whilst they have been there.
Someone did come round not long after they moved in to check all the electrics and there were several areas which he said were unsafe and these were never rectified by the landlord.
He has never responded to any request for repairs and consequently they have spent quite a lot of money rectifying things themselves (silly I know but they were under the impression that they were going to be long term tenants and the rent was so reasonable they felt happy to pay for things themselves).

They do have a record of the rent they have been paying through standing order to his account and also a record of the deposit they paid into his account marked as 'Deposit for the address'.

I did look at something on here which said that if the deposit has not been protected then a Section 21 is not valid until it has been paid back to the tenant? but don't know if all the rules and regulations are invalid if they have never signed a tenancy agreement.

Taking all this into consideration can anyone advise what the landlord has to do to give them notice (as it sounds like he thinks a text is adequate) and also from the tenants perspective what steps they should be taking in regards to gaining the maximum time to find a new home.

One other issue is that if he is in serious financial trouble what happens if the house is repossessed before they have had time to find somewhere. They have no idea if any such action has started and neither do they know what the landlord is expecting from them as he has yet to speak to them.

Thank you in advance for any advice.

AdrianC

Even if this was proper s21 notice (which it isn't), his "asap" would be two complete rental months, which could be up to three calendar months, depending on when their last rent date was.

But since he's broken just about every rule in the book, it wouldn't be valid anyway. He simply can't give them valid notice under s21... They're there as long as they want to be.

Whether it's worth the hassle is another question, of course. As is what depths he may sink to if he finds them digging their heels in.

If the property is repossessed, then they simply get a new landlord - the lender in possession.

Once they finally move out, then they need to get their deposit back. That'll be straightforward through the courts. If the landlord really starts to look like he might play silly games, then they may wish to remind him that he could be liable for three times the deposit.

G_M

swingaloo wrote: »

.... They rent from a private landlord, not through an agent.
So what? Irrelevant.

From the beginning there have been issues but they have been happy to go along with it as they were paying a vey reasonable rent and they loved the house.
Issues? Repairs? See Repairing Obligations:

But irrelevant to current situation.

The situation now is that they have just had a text message from the landlord saying that unfortunately he is having to sell the house and needs them to move out asap.
Legally meaningless. They can either ignore, or contact him and come to some agreement eg he pays them £X and they move out on Y date.

He seems to be under the impression that they will just up and go
Well it's up to them whether they do or not.

but its not so simple as they need time to find somewhere else and need to stay in the area plus Xmas is coming so not an ideal time.
Indeed

Ive told them that there are steps the landlord needs to take to get the property back Correctbut Im unsure of the footing as they have never had a written contract.
Irrelevant. Lack of a written contract does not mean they don't have a valid tenancy. They do. He provides a huse and they pay rent.


The situation is-

The landlord seems a 'nice' happy go lucky type with the gift of the gab but he clearly knows nothing about being a landlord so Im assuming he will have no idea of what he needs to do to get them out of the property
So if they want they can just ignore hm till he learns.
They might want to consider changing the locks just in case he gets impatient, decides to ignore the process and tries to 'move them' himself.

although from what they have said I would not be surprised if he was in serious financial trouble as there have been bailiffs looking for him and court orders in the last 12 months which he says he has dealt with and told them there is no need for worry.
See
* Repossession: what if a LL's mortgage lender repossesses the property?

The landlord has never given them anything in writing regarding the tenancy. Irrelevant See above.
He has never protected the deposit. They can claim the penalty - 3 times the depost. See
* Deposits: payment, protection and return
He has never provided any kind of safety certificate or had any gas checks done whilst they have been there.
then if/when he learns about S21 Notices, the notice will be invalid so can alsobe ignored.

Someone did come round not long after they moved in to check all the electrics and there were several areas which he said were unsafe and these were never rectified by the landlord.
The tenants are mad. Why have they not taken action to protect themselves. Unsafe electrics? No gas inspection? Do they not care about their own safety!!!!???

He has never responded to any request for repairs and consequently they have spent quite a lot of money rectifying things themselves (silly I know but they were under the impression that they were going to be long term tenants and the rent was so reasonable they felt happy to pay for things themselves).
Yes, silly - there are processes for enforcing repairs
They do have a record of the rent they have been paying through standing order to his account and also a record of the deposit they paid into his account marked as 'Deposit for the address'. good

I did look at something on here which said that if the deposit has not been protected then a Section 21 is not valid until it has been paid back to the tenant? but don't know if all the rules and regulations are invalid if they have never signed a tenancy agreement.you are right.

Taking all this into consideration can anyone advise what the landlord has to do to give them notice (as it sounds like he thinks a text is adequate)
Return the deposit
provide a gas report, EPC and Gov Leaflet
Serve a S21 and wait 2 months
(even then it may be invalid - see link below)

and also from the tenants perspective what steps they should be taking in regards to gaining the maximum time to find a new home.
So nothing except change the locks

One other issue is that if he is in serious financial trouble what happens if the house is repossessed before they have had time to find somewhere. They have no idea if any such action has started and neither do they know what the landlord is expecting from them as he has yet to speak to them.

.

* Repossession: what if a LL's mortgage lender repossesses the property?


* S21 checklist (Is a S21 valid?)

swingaloo

Thank you for the replies.

They have just had another text telling them that if they want to stay till the house is sold they will need to allow viewings or, of they done want to do that they can have a months notice so its up to them to decide which option they would like. It would be funny if they were not so upset by the situation.

Reading through all the replies would appear that he doesn't have a leg to stand on which is what I thought.

However, its not realistic for them to sit tight forever and they are looking for somewhere else. But, from the landlords point of view, apart from getting nasty what steps will he need to take as he has no chance of issuing a valid Section 21 (Thanks for the link GM) as even if he returns the deposit he still cant provide the relevant paperwork re safety checks etc.
So is it a matter of him having to apply to the courts as he is not going to wait indefinitely.

Comms69

swingaloo wrote: »

Thank you for the replies.

They have just had another text telling them that if they want to stay till the house is sold they will need to allow viewings or, of they done want to do that they can have a months notice so its up to them to decide which option they would like. It would be funny if they were not so upset by the situation.

Reading through all the replies would appear that he doesn't have a leg to stand on which is what I thought.

However, its not realistic for them to sit tight forever and they are looking for somewhere else. But, from the landlords point of view, apart from getting nasty what steps will he need to take as he has no chance of issuing a valid Section 21 (Thanks for the link GM) as even if he returns the deposit he still cant provide the relevant paperwork re safety checks etc.
So is it a matter of him having to apply to the courts as he is not going to wait indefinitely.

Just ignore him, the landlord will be paying them a 5 figure sum to leave soon enough

elsien

He really is clueless, isn't he?

So having established the LL doesn't know his !!!! from his elbow, what would your friends perceive to be the best way forwards from here on in.

Clearly they're going to have to move at some point, however many months that may take but the ball is in their court; have they had chance to look and see what else is out there, so they can decide what they want to negotiate from the LL?

Comms69

elsien wrote: »

He really is clueless, isn't he?

So having established the LL doesn't know his !!!! from his elbow, what would your friends perceive to be the best way forwards from here on in.

Clearly they're going to have to move at some point, however many months that may take but the ball is in their court; have they had chance to look and see what else is out there, so they can decide what they want to negotiate from the LL?

As it currently stands, no gas safety certificate prior to moving in, no s.21 eviction - ever.

G_M

swingaloo wrote: »

.....
However, its not realistic for them to sit tight forever and they are looking for somewhere else.
sensible.But there's no hury!

But, from the landlords point of view, apart from getting nasty what steps will he need to take
see my post above

as he has no chance of issuing a valid Section 21 (Thanks for the link GM) as even if he returns the deposit he still cant provide the relevant paperwork re safety checks etc.
So is it a matter of him having to apply to the courts as he is not going to wait indefinitely.

The courts will not grant him possession without either a valid S21 Notice or a valid S8 Notice (eg for rent arrears etc see 18 Schedule 2 reasons here).

There is even some legal debate as to whether obtaining a gas report now would validate a S21 - the law infers that if the gas report was not provided at the start of the tenancy, no S21 can ever be served.

See Caridon Property Ltd v Shooltz, Central London County Court, 2 February 2018.

Given his levelof ignorance, and his repeated texts suggesting he expects them to simply comply, I repeat my earlier advice: Change the locks. Keep the old locks and replace them if/when the tenants leave.

Cost? £5 - £15. Easy to DIY. See:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXAo7zSN-9o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VHm_QhWlMQ

they will need to allow viewings or, of they done want to do that they can have a months notice so its up to them to decide which option they would like

They do not have to allow viewings. The tenancy agreement may say they have to in the final month/two months of te tenancy, but as the tenancy is not ending (no notice by the tenants, and no valid S21 from the LL) that does not apply.


But it's another reason to change the locks.........................

AdrianC

swingaloo wrote: »

They have just had another text telling them that if they want to stay till the house is sold they will need to allow viewings

Change the locks. Quiet enjoyment.

or, of they done want to do that they can have a months notice

<wipes tear of laughter>

However, its not realistic for them to sit tight forever and they are looking for somewhere else.

This is wise.

But, from the landlords point of view, apart from getting nasty what steps will he need to take as he has no chance of issuing a valid Section 21 (Thanks for the link GM) as even if he returns the deposit he still cant provide the relevant paperwork re safety checks etc.
So is it a matter of him having to apply to the courts as he is not going to wait indefinitely.

He can't do anything.

Not. One. Thing.

s21 is never going to be an option for him, because he's already shot himself in that foot. Unless he can show one of the s8 grounds applies, then he is mortally and permanently stuffed.

From this point forwards, he has three choices.
1. Sell the property with sitting tenants, taking a major league bath on the price.
2. Get down on his knees before them, grovel, explain that he's learned his lesson, and would they mind awfully helping him out of his predicament?
3. Dig an ever deeper hole, and decide that since he's outside the law already, what has he possibly got to lose?

AdrianC

G_M wrote: »

There is even some legal debate as to whether obtaining a gas report now would validate a S21 - the law infers that if the gas report was not provided at the start of the tenancy, no S21 can ever be served.

That apart, he's permastuffed on the failure to secure the deposit and hand over the leaflets within 30 days, is he not?

Comms69

AdrianC wrote: »

That apart, he's permastuffed on the failure to secure the deposit and hand over the leaflets within 30 days, is he not?

Retrun of the deposit would allow a s.21 to be served