Avoiding Oil stocks in a FTSE tracker

Thrugelmir

AnotherJoe wrote: »

But, hopefully each EV fast charger they install at a petrol station will nudge people towards going EV.

Unless there's the demand, then capital investment in infrastructure will remain slow paced. A lack of reasonably priced vehicles at the current doesn't help. At an entry price of £22k for the Renault Zoe. Manufacturers have some way to go to meet the demands of the mass market. Then there's the long term factor of durability of the vehicles to be considered.

over_and_out

SonOf wrote: »

If you start making management decisions then you really cease to be a passive investor.

And if you get out of bed in the morning, you're making an active management decision

bowlhead99 wrote: »

At the end of the day, the FTSE100 is about 16% oil and gas

And the FTSE250 is about 3% oil and gas. So holding a FTSE250 tracker might be an idea for people who want a passive UK investment with less oil and gas. Though not for people who want no oil and gas, not just less.

There are a few other reasons why some investors might favour the FTSE250 over the FTSE100, anyway. For one thing, it's less dominated by a few companies and sectors. Also, it's closer to being equal-weighted (the largest constituent has only about 10 times the weighting of the smallest; in the FTSE100, the largest component has about 50 times the weighting of the smallest), which some would see as an advantage.

bowlhead99

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Unless there's the demand, then capital investment in infrastructure will remain slow paced. A lack of reasonably priced vehicles at the current doesn't help. At an entry price of £22k for the Renault Zoe. Manufacturers have some way to go to meet the demands of the mass market. Then there's the long term factor of durability of the vehicles to be considered.

It's one of those chicken and egg situations.

Buying an electric car is not feasible for many because of the lack of infrastructure. A huge proportion of people don't have their own driveways to install a charger. Even if the council would let you install a charger on their pavement to charge while you're parked overnight in front of your home, you can't guarantee you would get to park in front of your home because the roads are public. The chap from down the street might fancy charging his car there instead, and he's not going to get out of bed at 3am and wake you up to let you have a go on the charger once his is full. Or your neighbour who doesn't even have an EV might park in the spot, because, well, it's a parking space and he doesn't want to walk a long way from his house in the rain to find another. The people lucky enough to have an office car park at the end of their commute won't have an EV bay each.

So, these people won't get EVs as they are not going to shell out 'early adopter' money for expensive cars without infrastructure to hand. Yet commercial businesses (and councils) won't build infrastructure on their land without demand. At the moment it's fine if you can afford an expensive Tesla and your own fast charger on your own land, as there are so few of you that if you are driving from London to Scotland there will probably be a motorway service station with a spare slot, because they all have a few fast charger slots and there's hardly any Teslas. But managing exponential growth to provide the chickens and eggs at roughly the same time - excuse the clumsy metaphors - seems tricky.

Go back a couple of decades and there was something similar with wide-screen TVs. Lots of cash to get the TV, and no broadcast content. And broadcasters didn't want to put out 16:9 content while the 99% of viewers with square TVs would complain about 'the annoying black bars'. Fortunately BBC could take a lead on gradually getting things broadcast at 14:9 or 16:9 as digital kicked off without needing to worry if the public liked it or the advertisers would worry about audience feedback. Public service remit is one of the good things about the much criticised license fee. These days you can get a new digital TV for a few beans, and I'm sure affordable electric cars will be available by the time hydrocarbon ones aren't, but there is a long way to join the dots between where we are and where we'll be. Few landowners are optimistic enough for 'if we build it, they will come...'

AnotherJoe

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Unless there's the demand, then capital investment in infrastructure will remain slow paced. A lack of reasonably priced vehicles at the current doesn't help. At an entry price of £22k for the Renault Zoe. Manufacturers have some way to go to meet the demands of the mass market.

There is no demand problem, there's a supply problem. At the mid range anyway, the main issue at the moment is as simple as, almost literally, no availability. The demand is there in spades, but the manufacturers arent making enough mostly because they didn't get battery supply sorted.

Two of what would clearly otherwise be the top sellers at the moment are on a one year plus wait list.

The VW eGolf replacement "ID.3" is also a year away even though its been announced and you can order it now, same for a few other forthcoming mid range (say mid £30k's) cars.
I dont really want a Tesla Model 3 but i may end up getting one as a stopgap for a year whilst i wait since those are available with a couple of months wait even though Tesla are selling all they can make.

Dont fancy the Zoe, too many stories about bad electrics (not the motor and battery ironically!) and no better range than my current car, plus it has charging issues, and the new Zoe is also maybe 9 months off. Though it is cheap, i could rent one for a year. £300/month cheaper than the Tesla. Then the bad electrics dont matter

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Then there's the long term* factor of durability of the vehicles to be considered.

Not an issue nowadays unless you have a Nissan Leaf where the jury is out on the new one.



*(As long as "long term" is less than 7 or 8 years)

Thrugelmir

AnotherJoe wrote: »

Not an issue nowadays unless you have a Nissan Leaf where the jury is out on the new one.

I was thinking more about the cost of battery packs. As Renault Zoe is the cheapest EV currently available in the UK market. Using it as benchmark seems reasonable. For a user doing 9,000 miles per annum. You can lease the battery for a flat monthly fee of £79 (£948 PA).

Might be ok for people that can afford £30k - £40k mid range vehicles. To the bulk of the UK population , once the cars drop onto the secondhand market, that's a considerable monthly outgoing. Bearing in mind that other servicing expenditure plus cost of tyres etc will still be incurred.

Consumer priced EV's seem some distance away. Let alone long distance HGV's. Which could consume a battery pack within a year.

[Deleted User]

New Zoe's were going for £15.5k cash around 2 years (that was with the 40kwh battery included, not rented), not sure the list price is accurate. New model is 52kwh with upgraded interior. I just don't like the look of it that much.

VW E-UP (with bigger battery but still only 150ish mile range) will most likely be under £18k, think you can order now.
VW ID seems like it has the best chance of a being a mass bought car but not sure I like it's looks.

Think you could own a Model 3 without a driveway, as the Tesla charging network can charge at something like 1000 miles of range added per hour. But then you need to pay Tesla electricity prices which are 24p/kwh I think, so almost double what you would pay at home.

I don't understand why anyone would buy a £40k BMW/Audi/Merc over a Model 3.

Sailtheworld

itwasntme001 wrote: »

Shell at least are already investing their huge cashflows into renewable energy. So investing in the company already is partly investing for renewable energy. Similarly tobacco companies are trying to invest their huge cashflows into less harmful products. Time will tell if both sectors produce shareholder value at current prices and make significant changes to their business to satisfy those who are so against these sectors.

I agree but I can't see the point of getting upset if someone else decides oil & tobacco companies aren't for them.

AnotherJoe

Thrugelmir wrote: »

I was thinking more about the cost of battery packs. As Renault Zoe is the cheapest EV currently available in the UK market. Using it as benchmark seems reasonable. For a user doing 9,000 miles per annum. You can lease the battery for a flat monthly fee of £79 (£948 PA).

Might be ok for people that can afford £30k - £40k mid range vehicles. To the bulk of the UK population , once the cars drop onto the secondhand market, that's a considerable monthly outgoing. Bearing in mind that other servicing expenditure plus cost of tyres etc will still be incurred. .

Rumour is that Renault , in the UK, are dropping the battery lease option, Zoe's (the new one I presume) will be purchase only battery included, just like every other EV.

I believe its causing too much confusion with customers who come in having seen a car at say £15k and then find its another £79/month and get annoyed at the "deception" even if overall its cheaper.

It also doesn't look good when trying to argue that the car is cheap to run "because electricity is cheaper than petrol" if there's a monthly extra charge thats more than most spend on petrol, plus you have to buy the electricity as well !

Thrugelmir

AnotherJoe wrote: »

Rumour is that Renault , in the UK, are dropping the battery lease option, Zoe's (the new one I presume) will be purchase only battery included, just like every other EV.

I believe its causing too much confusion with customers who come in having seen a car at say £15k and then find its another £79/month and get annoyed at the "deception" even if overall its cheaper.

It also doesn't look good when trying to argue that the car is cheap to run "because electricity is cheaper than petrol" if there's a monthly extra charge thats more than most spend on petrol, plus you have to buy the electricity as well !

What's the total cost of having a new battery pack fitted? One assumes that it cannot be cheap given the sums involved. From the off there's a depreciating asset that needs to be taken into account.

With the loss to the Exchequer revenue from the tax on fuel. There'll need to be a corresponding recovery elsewhere.

Sailtheworld

Thrugelmir wrote: »

I was thinking more about the cost of battery packs. As Renault Zoe is the cheapest EV currently available in the UK market. Using it as benchmark seems reasonable. For a user doing 9,000 miles per annum. You can lease the battery for a flat monthly fee of £79 (£948 PA).

Might be ok for people that can afford £30k - £40k mid range vehicles. To the bulk of the UK population , once the cars drop onto the secondhand market, that's a considerable monthly outgoing. Bearing in mind that other servicing expenditure plus cost of tyres etc will still be incurred.

Consumer priced EV's seem some distance away. Let alone long distance HGV's. Which could consume a battery pack within a year.

Prices will keep coming down. Even if they don't they'll still be 'consumer priced' because ICE cars will be legislated or taxed out of existence. There won't be a cheaper alternative.

They'll also get more convenient with quicker charge times and better range. I expect that we'll see lift in / lift out battery packs - you leave one pack at home charging with solar panels whilst using the other.

Obviously HGVs will take longer.

The future's electric.