Parking ticket advise needed please.

darich

Now that I've seen the sign at home I can make further comment.

It's not ambiguous in any way.

The first part states that the area/bay is a drop off or pick up point for rail passengers.
Nothing ambiguous there.
Second part states that parking is limited to 20minutes from Monday to Friday. Nothing ambiguous there.

I have no idea how people can call this ambiguous or misinterpret the sign.

In Scotland all signs have a TRO (Traffic Regulation Order) which describes in a much more verbose manner, the manner of the restriction, the extents of it and any exceptions or relaxations.
Presumably in England there is a similar procedure.

Before anyone argues that it could mean something else - it can't. You may try to read something else from it, but legally and in the order it can only mean one thing.

It is also irrelevant who issued the ticket - it's been issued and given that there is a warning sign with the rules clearly stated, should be paid.
The only chance of the ticket being successfully appealed is if there is a mistake in the TRO, or the location of the sign.

As for the warden advising that you should appeal - I'd read nothing into that.
He may have been having a bad day.
have a gripe with his employer
hate his job - i mean who goes through school wanting to be a traffic warden? (no disrespect but they're generally disliked although very necessary)

I think you'll be very lucky to have it successfully appealed.

Wig

So you think it obviously means XYZ and most other people here think it means ABC, the traffic warden thinks it means ABC.

And you think it's correct to say it's not ambiguous? Maybe not to you but it is also not ambiguous to me, I think it definately says ABC.

When you stand back and look at the bigger picture and see that a few think adamantly it is XYZ and many think adamantly it is ABC. The only logical conclusion that can arrived at is that overall it is abiguous.

Signs have to be clear to be enforceable. As you rightly point out there are TROs (or whatever) to make sure that highway signage is correct and understandable.
No such requirement is put on private land signs, but they must still be understandable to be enforceable otherwise no contract can exist.

To me it is only a drop off pick up bay during Mon - Fri. Which is inkeeping with the way all highway signs are interpreted, hours are put below and refer to the conditions above the hours.

darich

Wig wrote: »

To me it is only a drop off pick up bay during Mon - Fri. Which is inkeeping with the way all highway signs are interpreted, hours are put below and refer to the conditions above the hours.

It is a drop off and pick up bay at all times. The sign gives no indication of a period where it is not a drop off bay.
It does however relax the rules slightly by allowing parking for a maximum of 20minutes on Monday through to Friday.
If the 20minutes was aobve the line then it would be taken as a drop off bay only for that period - but the horizontal line defines that the bay is for drop off only. But you can park for 20mins as the 2nd part says.
Anyone can choose to read another meaning from the sign but that is the position - legally.

To be honest, i doubt that wardens will know the legalities of TROs - otherwise they'd be in the office issue them rather than writing tickets. And like i said - he may have an issue with his employer for an infinite number of reasons and encourages joe public to make it difficult for them.

gsmmad

trafic wardens aint bad guys dude .....

there just doing there job and if you ask any of them for advice they will try to help you out as much as possible.....

end of the day if they do there target through there shifts nothing happens even if the appeal are sucessful as long as targets are achived

Tao81

Due to the willy-nilly way that parking attendants and clampers work these days I tend to urr on the side of caution (being a MSE addict) and if in doubt I will always drive off and find a parking bay near a sign that is unambiguous - so in this case personally I would have been left scratching my head and therefore would have left well alone and gone elsewhere.

However, in view of the event under discussion, what I find particularly perplexing is that the issuer of the ticket has explicitly stated that the offence was parking in this bay for more than 20 mins which only applies MON-FRI?!!! Surely if this sign should be interpreted as no parking for any period on a SAT and SUN, then the ticket must state the offence 'parking in a bay designated as a drop-off/pick-up point' - and the date the ticket was issued would sufficed to support the enforcement of this penalty notice?!!!

The way I see it is that the warden either got confused over which day of the week it is whilst issuing said ticket? or if he/she has intended to book the driver for parking there on a saturday then they are guilty of incorrectly stating the nature of the offence, which would surely technically invalidate the ticket?!

I'd protest, even if only to elicit a change of sign over that bay to make it unambiguous and blatantly clear for all?! :rolleyes:

seftonsun

darich wrote: »

Anyone can choose to read another meaning from the sign but that is the position - legally.

Can you please quote your legal authority for reaching that conclusion? Case law and appropriate references would also be appreciated. I would suggest that the only legal conclusion and decsion that is valid in England is that of a Judge, a Magistrate or anyone else so empowered by law (i.e a parking adjudictaor, an arbitrator, etc). Everyone else can have an opinion, and we often do, but that's all it is. Of course it may be du=iffernt north of the border, but I am not sure that it is.

You may want to take a look at the Department for Transport Know Your Traffic Signs Manual. In particalar, I would suggest that the signs on Page 49 of the manual (page 50 in the PDF viewer) would seem to indicate that the sign we are debating probably has the following meaning:

1. It is a Drop off and Pick up point for Rail Passengers;
2. That the parking controls apply Monday to Friday for 20 minutes; &,
3. At all other times (i.e 00.01 Saturday to 23.59 Sunday) any vehicle may park without time limit.

But, as I say above, that's just my opinion and at the end of the day only a person charged by the law can make a binding decision. As indicated within my previous post there is ambiguity and in such circumstances the motorist would normally be given the benefit of the situation.

Doozergirl

anewman wrote: »

Also no one has pointed out yet that the ticket refers to the 20 minute limit, which the sign states is only enforced monday to friday. If the area was restricted on saturday and sunday, the ticket would have mentioned that rather than 20 minutes. The ticket issuer obviously didn't know what day of the week it was.

Exactly. I can't believe that so few people have picked up on this.

Regardless of which way a layperson interprets the sign, the traffic warden has interpreted it wrong themselves. Whatever the restrictions are outside Mon-Fri, it certainly isn't 20mins parking on a weekend. It's either all day or not at all. The traffic warden has the OPs wife for parking for more than 20 minutes on a Saturday. Idiot.

darich

seftonsun wrote: »

Can you please quote your legal authority for reaching that conclusion? Case law and appropriate references would also be appreciated. I would suggest that the only legal conclusion and decsion that is valid in England is that of a Judge, a Magistrate or anyone else so empowered by law (i.e a parking adjudictaor, an arbitrator, etc). Everyone else can have an opinion, and we often do, but that's all it is. Of course it may be du=iffernt north of the border, but I am not sure that it is.

You may want to take a look at the Department for Transport Know Your Traffic Signs Manual. In particalar, I would suggest that the signs on Page 49 of the manual (page 50 in the PDF viewer) would seem to indicate that the sign we are debating probably has the following meaning:

1. It is a Drop off and Pick up point for Rail Passengers;
2. That the parking controls apply Monday to Friday for 20 minutes; &,
3. At all other times (i.e 00.01 Saturday to 23.59 Sunday) any vehicle may park without time limit.

But, as I say above, that's just my opinion and at the end of the day only a person charged by the law can make a binding decision. As indicated within my previous post there is ambiguity and in such circumstances the motorist would normally be given the benefit of the situation.

You're right on points 1 & 2 but no 3 i think is wrong.
At all other times (i.e 00.01 Saturday to 23.59 Sunday) the bay in question is for drop off /pick up for rail passengers.
Using your page 50 as an example, the signs all state the general limits at the top. Any exceptions or relaxations are stated below.
So in the case of the OP the bay is a drop off and pick bay only.
However it is relaxed Monday to Friday and allows parking for a period of 20minutes.

Further to the legal position - THe person/body empowered by law is the local authority. They have that power as granted to them by the Scottish Executive in Scotland and presumably, the Dept for Transport in England. Since these governing bodies approve the signage and the orders then other interpretations are really irrelevant.

As far as the wrong offence is concerned - that is a possibility. However, by claiming the wrong offence was written on the ticket (ie the OP was parked all day when the 20min restriction was not enforceable) then there is an admission that a different offence was committed - parking all day where only pick up and drop off is allowed.
That could backfire but i would imagine that since no ticket was issued for that particular offence, it would be difficult if not impossible, for any fine to be issued retrospectively

daveyjp

Get a copy of the relevant Traffic Regulation Order from the Council. If they gave you the ticket there must be a TRO in place to allow tickets to be given. This will explain in detail what the restrictions actually are.

We had signs around my place of work which were complicated as there was pay and display Mon-Fri 8am - 5pm but residents showing a permit didn't have to pay. The signs were put up to reflect the TRO, but they didn't make sense as it made out the area was residents only outside of the times non residents had to pay, which isn't the case.

Needless to say all the signs have just been replaced and are now correct.

seftonsun

darich wrote: »

You're right on points 1 & 2 but no 3 i think is wrong.
At all other times (i.e 00.01 Saturday to 23.59 Sunday) the bay in question is for drop off /pick up for rail passengers.
Using your page 50 as an example, the signs all state the general limits at the top. Any exceptions or relaxations are stated below.
So in the case of the OP the bay is a drop off and pick bay only.
However it is relaxed Monday to Friday and allows parking for a period of 20minutes.

I agree that it is a drop off and pick up bay but without any other defining parameters there can be no offence committed except by contravening the 20 minute rule on Monday - Friday. As far as I am aware there is no

darich wrote: »

Further to the legal position - THe person/body empowered by law is the local authority. They have that power as granted to them by the Scottish Executive in Scotland and presumably, the Dept for Transport in England. Since these governing bodies approve the signage and the orders then other interpretations are really irrelevant.

I believe you may be getting confused here The bodies you specify have the statutory power to implement the regulations, to monitor that they are being complied with and to issue penalties (normally by a PCN) where appropriate. Whilst the appropriate body (i.e. a local authority) will enforce their regulation by way of a penalty, the issue of that Penalty is only based upon their (or their representative's, i.e. a parking attendant) opinion that an offence has been committed. The only body that can enforce the Penalty is the Court (or other body as Parliament may prescribe for the purpose). The issue of any penalty will need to be lawful and it would be wholly inappropriate if the issuing body were also the enforcing body. If local authorities were the “Judge” as well as being the prosecutor we may all just as well give up now!!

On your submission it would appear that the regulating body could never be wrong or challenged. Everyone is always guilty! However, that is not the situation, there is always the right of “appeal”. Normally in the first instant to the regulator (i.e. the local authority). And, if it is not resolved satisfactorily at that level, to an independant body that could be the Court or as is more normal in Parking Disputes to a Parking Adjudicator. If it is a Parking Adjudicator then it will be a much less formal procedure than in Court and normally common sense is applied in more liberal doses.