Back Billing or Rebilling??

basil3legs

Can someone tell me the difference between Back billing and Rebilling?

The reason I ask is that we, a Micro Business, were with Scottish Power for 7 years. Throughout that time our meter only gave one reading when it should have been 3 so whenever they asked for a reading we rung them and told them this (and opened a new complaint to try to get this sorted out). They either accused us of lying to them or occasionally actually arranged for an engineer to come out and sort the meter out. The engineers never turned up so this never got sorted out. So, we had over 6 years of Estimated bills. During this period, as their 3 estimated readings totalled way more than the single reading on the meter they reduced our payments. Once the readings got close, we rang them and arranged for our Direct Debit to be increased to cover our usage. When we received a bill for around £5,000.00 we paid off the £2000.00 we thought we actually owed them due to the readings still not being the same and continued to pay about what we thought we were using.

Anyway, a month or so later we had a problem with our Telephone so waited on-site for an engineer when someone actually turned up to sort out the Electricity Meter! It got reprogrammed and we assumed all would be sorted.

However, they then "rebilled" us for over 3 years of use using starting figures way lower than any bills up to that period and decided we now owed them around £15,000.00 whereas we assumed it would be pretty much nothing.

I use the term "rebilled" as they are adamant they did not Back Bill and hence don't have to apply their code of conduct (whereby they can only Back Bill 12 months) to this.

They would not budge on this so we approached the Ombudsman Service. Not knowing how this worked we probably didn't supply them with enough information but on querying this we were told they would get everything from Scottish Power. It later transpired that Scottish Power did not supply them with any of the original bills they had cancelled so the Ombudsman was not in receipt of all the facts. Initially they didn't notice the start readings discrepancy and sided with Scottish Power. Once this was pointed out to them they agreed with us that Scottish Power probably owed us money and suggested Scottish Power rebilled us from when we moved to them. We DID NOT agree to this as I have had problems with Scottish Power before. However they went ahead with this anyway.

Scottish Power then changed the start figures and came back with a bill of around £18,000.00!

I took this up again with the Ombudsman but nothing happened for months.

Eventually it was passed to a new person at the Ombudsman Service. At this point it transpired that our meter had been changed by our previous supplier just before we moved to Scottish Power and the start readings they had used, as supplied by our previous supplier, were wrong. Scottish Power then argued that we had, in fact, been undercharged by around £13,000.00 because we should have been on a single rate tariff as per the meter readings despite this being our previous suppliers error compounded with them failing to send out an engineer to remedy the problem. The new Ombudsman agreed that Scottish Power had effectively written off £13,000.00 (which is total BS and god knows what rate they used for this!) and that we had not been Back Billed so Scottish Power's Code of Conduct did not apply.

This is when I found out the Scottish Power had not supplied the cancelled bills. I sent over the last estimated bill but was again told we had not been Back Billed. I then asked what the difference between Back Billing and Rebilling was and was told they had made their final decision and would not talk to me at all either by email or phone!!

I know this is more for Private individuals but any advice would be gratefully received as we feel this has been totally Scottish Power's fault and certainly can't afford to pay them £18,000.00!!

NotLucky

basil3legs wrote: »

Can someone tell me the difference between Back billing and Rebilling?

The reason I ask is that we, a Micro Business, were with Scottish Power for 7 years. Throughout that time our meter only gave one reading when it should have been 3 so whenever they asked for a reading we rung them and told them this (and opened a new complaint to try to get this sorted out). They either accused us of lying to them or occasionally actually arranged for an engineer to come out and sort the meter out. The engineers never turned up so this never got sorted out. So, we had over 6 years of Estimated bills. During this period, as their 3 estimated readings totalled way more than the single reading on the meter they reduced our payments. Once the readings got close, we rang them and arranged for our Direct Debit to be increased to cover our usage. When we received a bill for around £5,000.00 we paid off the £2000.00 we thought we actually owed them due to the readings still not being the same and continued to pay about what we thought we were using.

Anyway, a month or so later we had a problem with our Telephone so waited on-site for an engineer when someone actually turned up to sort out the Electricity Meter! It got reprogrammed and we assumed all would be sorted.

However, they then "rebilled" us for over 3 years of use using starting figures way lower than any bills up to that period and decided we now owed them around £15,000.00 whereas we assumed it would be pretty much nothing.

I use the term "rebilled" as they are adamant they did not Back Bill and hence don't have to apply their code of conduct (whereby they can only Back Bill 12 months) to this.

They would not budge on this so we approached the Ombudsman Service. Not knowing how this worked we probably didn't supply them with enough information but on querying this we were told they would get everything from Scottish Power. It later transpired that Scottish Power did not supply them with any of the original bills they had cancelled so the Ombudsman was not in receipt of all the facts. Initially they didn't notice the start readings discrepancy and sided with Scottish Power. Once this was pointed out to them they agreed with us that Scottish Power probably owed us money and suggested Scottish Power rebilled us from when we moved to them. We DID NOT agree to this as I have had problems with Scottish Power before. However they went ahead with this anyway.

Scottish Power then changed the start figures and came back with a bill of around £18,000.00!

I took this up again with the Ombudsman but nothing happened for months.

Eventually it was passed to a new person at the Ombudsman Service. At this point it transpired that our meter had been changed by our previous supplier just before we moved to Scottish Power and the start readings they had used, as supplied by our previous supplier, were wrong. Scottish Power then argued that we had, in fact, been undercharged by around £13,000.00 because we should have been on a single rate tariff as per the meter readings despite this being our previous suppliers error compounded with them failing to send out an engineer to remedy the problem. The new Ombudsman agreed that Scottish Power had effectively written off £13,000.00 (which is total BS and god knows what rate they used for this!) and that we had not been Back Billed so Scottish Power's Code of Conduct did not apply.

This is when I found out the Scottish Power had not supplied the cancelled bills. I sent over the last estimated bill but was again told we had not been Back Billed. I then asked what the difference between Back Billing and Rebilling was and was told they had made their final decision and would not talk to me at all either by email or phone!!

I know this is more for Private individuals but any advice would be gratefully received as we feel this has been totally Scottish Power's fault and certainly can't afford to pay them £18,000.00!!

Welcome back after almost 8 years.

Back billing - essentially a process where an energy supplier agrees not to pursue collection of amounts not already paid for energy used but not billed that was used over 12 months ago. (terms apply, and each case will be assessed individually on its merits)

Re-billing - usually considered to be where a supplier has sent bills again (possibly, but not necessarily, correcting previous bills)

Presumaby, you have rejected the ombudsman's final decision in your claim?
If so, I suggest you seek independent legal advice if you wish to pursue this any further, as the ombudsman gave their final response, and the supplier is not obligated to discuss the matter directly with you any further from the point the ombudsman originally accepted to consider the complaint for you.

If you elect to take this further, expect the court to be advised that both the energy supplier, and the independant ombudsman service had previously both found against you in your claim.

Perhaps those on the Debt Free Wannabe board can assist you with your financial issues, if you were to post there about that aspect?

JJ_Egan

But are business supplies rules different i ask .

basil3legs

Thanks NotLucky. I think we will have to talk to a solicitor. If the usage they haven't billed for is spread over more than 6 years due to their incompetence in sorting the meter out or ever getting the meter read themselves would you say that was Back Billing or Rebilling?

JJ Egan, Most major suppliers signed up to a bill of practice regarding back billing for Micro Businesses. The reason for this, I assume, was to protect Micro Businesses from suddenly getting a huge bill due to !!!!-ups by their suppliers which would probably cripple their business. Scottish Power agreed not to Back Bill for more than 12 months.

Of course when they fudged the first "rebill" they made out we use about twice as much electricity a year than we really do. Suspiciously there overbilled annual usage would have made us not a Micro Business. Strange that!

Streaky_Bacon

Back billing is a term used to refer to billing for energy used more than 12 months ago, and which cannot be enforced (subject to various conditions).

Rebilling is the process of sending out a recalculated a bill.

The two terms are not mutually exclusive. A brand new bill could fall foul of the back billing rules, as could a reissued bill.

I was myself "rebilled" by Scottish Power, who then claimed that it did not fall into the back billing rules. Happily the ombudsman found in my favour.

NotLucky wrote: »

If you elect to take this further, expect the court to be advised that both the energy supplier, and the independant ombudsman service had previously both found against you in your claim.

To have somebody "find against you" suggests that they are some kind of independent arbiter. That's certainly the case with regards to the ombudsman, but certainly not the case with Scottish Power.

Scottish Power haven't "found against" the OP, anymore than the OP has "found against" Scottish Power.

NotLucky wrote: »

If so, I suggest you seek independent legal advice if you wish to pursue this any further, as the ombudsman gave their final response, and the supplier is not obligated to discuss the matter directly with you any further from the point the ombudsman originally accepted to consider the complaint for you.

Whilst I would agree with the suggestion of seeking legal advise I would also advise the OP to familiarize themselves with the relevant law as much as possible, and also provide as much detail here as possible to enable for further advice.

While a solicitor may need to be involved at some point, the OP should approach them armed with as much information and personal understanding of the rules as possible.

If anybody begins court proceedings it willbe Scottish Power, and if they do so without engaging fully with the OP, then they run significant risks. The courts will certainly take the view that SP have an obligation to discuss the matter further with the OP, if they wish to take such proceedings.

The amount involved are too high for the small claims track and so will bring into play far more formal rules for disclosure.

The OP may wish to consider posting the full decision of the ombudsman, to see if there are any obvious holes in the description of their decision making .

Cardew

JJ_Egan wrote: »

But are business supplies rules different i ask .

They normally do have different rules. However some while ago there was a change and a 'Micro Business' was covered under domestic regulations.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/simpler-clearer-fairer/information-business-consumers/micro-business-consumers-your-questions-answered

However the above link indicates that this change occurred in 2014 and the OP was with Scottish Power for over 7 years albeit states he has a micro business.

Could the confusion be that Scottish Power were charging commercial rates - with VAT at 20% - for all/some of the time.

mac.d

According to OFGEM* "Your supplier can’t ask to be paid for unbilled energy used more than 12 months ago, if you haven’t been accurately charged for this usage before."

Does that not mean that as SP haven't billed accurately through no fault of the OP, they can't now send a bill going back 3 years?


*OFGEM: Energy backbilling

basil3legs

Cardew, thanks for that link. I have been looking for someone to ring for advice on this and was considering Citizens Advice earlier but wasn't sure they included business support. That link mentioned Consumer Direct but they ceased to operate in 2012 with Citizens Advice taking over and I have finally found a mention of businesses on their site - so will call them tomorrow!

[Deleted User]

I work for Scottish Power reading these 3 rate small business meters.They are most often found in pubs.Usually the meter itself is an Ampy meter in my area.There is another make, Elster I think it is which causes a lot of problems and these are found in shops and small businesses.
These three raters, day/night/weekend are a constant problem with suppliers not able to bill the correct rate to match the times of the 24 hrs.
Suppliers constantly transpose a basic Eco 7 two rate meter , so the 3 raters will baffle them.
In my view Scottish Power have been negligent in not recognising that the billing is incorrect and should have gone and changed the meter straightaway immediately they recognised only one of the three reads were being recorded..
They are a shambolic supplier IMO anyway, the worst of the big six i work for. .Not much point in sending out an "engineer " or whatever they want to call it. that will just be a meter reader like me who has nt the faintest idea how to "sort out " a faulty meter. Faulty meters are changed .
Probably the reason the meter reader did nt turn up is because the address details he was using were very poor, such as a unit number only in a large industrial estate and he could nt locate you. Post code for Ind Estates can be the same for all units
I have been sent out quite often by other suppliers to check a 3 rate business meter which has a problem , mostly by British Gas. The ones I have seen have either been completely dead, showing no readings , or , like you are not showing all three readings .
Meter readers from Scottish Power sent to read your meter will have three fields to show on our PDA s listed 1, 2 , and 3 and if only 1 is showing , we then add a note in what is termed as "freeform comments " to pass onto the supplier that the meter is only showing one reading.
I don`t think Scot Power take any notice about our notes in freeform comments.. If ever I put something of importance in it , such as a dangerous dog/occupier they have nt taken any notice to warn future callers in advance.
Possibly meter readers in the past would log the one reading , then fill in the other two with 6 zeros just to complete the readings.
What you are not going to know OP is if the meter readers who occasionally showed up had your meter down as a single rate or a three rate meter. You would have to see their PDA to check

Streaky_Bacon

EnergyTwist wrote: »

Not quite.

You see generally it is for the complainant to prove their case, not for those being complained about to prove they have not done anything wrong, and that is certainly the case in law; innocent until proven guilty.

The OP has complained to Scottish Power, and Scottish Power were unconvinced by the arguments advanced against them. The OP then, as is their right, asked the independent ombudsman to review that decision, but after review the ombudsman upheld the earlier decision of the supplier.

Hence they both found against the OP's complaint.

Scottish Power and the OP are the two parties in this matter, neither of them are in a position to pass judgement on the other.

You could just as easily say that Scottish Power have complained to the OP that they owe them money, and that the OP is unconvinced by their arguments and so has found against them.

To provide context, you'll remember that the original post that I responded to said:

If you elect to take this further, expect the court to be advised that both the energy supplier, and the independant ombudsman service had previously both found against you in your claim.

which suggests that Scottish Power's refusal of the complaint would carry some weight with the court.

Scottish Power can go to court as the claimant, and the OP as the defendant. The judge would take note of the fact that the Ombudsman has disagreed with the OP and that is likely to carry weight (how much depends very much on the reasoning given), but the fact that Scottish Power disagrees with the OP carries no weight, because in every single case the court hears the Claimant and the Defendant disagree.

Scottish Power will have to show why, in law, they are entitled to judgement, and the fact they think they are entitled to judgement and have rejected the OP's complaint proves absolutely nothing.

A claimant has to establish a cause of action and provides evidence to support that.

The fact that a company rejects your complaint, is evidence of nothing, except that they rejected your complaint, in exactly the same way that your refusal to pay the money demanded is proof of nothing except that you have refused to pay it.

Of course, it doesn't stop plenty of companies trying to dress up their complaints procedure as a quasi-judicial process in which they pass judgement, in the hopes that might deter the customer..."we have reviewed your complaint, but must unfortunately advise you that, having taken everything into account, we have found in favour of ourselves"

kimplus8

I would put in a SAR/GDPR request with Scottish power for a full transcript of the event on your account. Ask to have the reports from the engineers and all call transcripts included.
You will then be in a position to go through all of that information and cross reference it with what you have and see what has happened on there end.