Eon Electrical Heating Economy 18 - advice needed

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

jammy_jam_jam wrote: »

Just had a call from Eon and got some good information from them: due to our Redring boiler we can't switch to Economy 7/10 however if we switch to an unrestricted tariff (including the 1-year fixed version) we can keep our current meter and boiler and the stored heat part of the meter will still work and will still switch on and off automatically as it does at the moment.

The last part is information that I haven't seen elsewhere so I hope it might be helpful to anyone else in the same situation.

As it is, we're looking at around £450 p/a extra on the unrestricted tariff and something over £200 p/a on the 1-year fixed so it's not all good news but at least we have something we can take back to the landlord now.

Thanks again Malc for your assistance.

jammy_jam_jam wrote: »

The rep said that we can keep our current meter and just change the tariff and they'll just combine the usage at their end for billing.

This is the email I received from him:

jammy_jam_jam wrote: »

Thanks thorganby and Alex for your replies. I had no idea that an Economy 7 meter could control the heating/hot water circuit like that so that's really valuable information. My other half is going to have a word with the landlord and see if they're open to the idea of sending out an electrician to give us some advice.

One quick question Alex - did the engineer who swapped your meter do all the necessary wiring to keep your heating/hot water working or is a separate electrician needed to do that side of things?

Hello jammy_jam_jam and happy to help.

I'm sorry if my colleagues haven't been clear when talking to you about your particular metering set-up. You've the option of having a different meter if you wish. The choice is yours.

We've a duty of care to let you know about the possible implications of a meter exchange based on the information you've given about the current heating arrangements. My colleagues will have used their experience of similar situations when providing this information. You're free to ignore this advice and go down another path.

You're doing the right thing in talking to a qualified electrician. If you're happy the property and hot water can be heated sufficiently with a different meter, please speak to our Simpler Metering team again. They'll book an appointment for you. There's no charge for meter exchanges carried out under the Simpler Metering project.

Thanks jammy_jam_jam.

Malc

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

Flt._Lt._Biggles wrote: »

So they are telling you they have no desire to change the meter (was malc wrong then? :cool: He's not usually in regards to anything Eon related) but instead of giving you 18 hours of cheap rate electricity for your heating and hot water, they want you to pay top notch rates 24/7/365

As I said, Economy 7 would provide you with 7 hours of electricity 7 hours every day, and it doesn't matter what you use that electricity for in those 7 hours.

And as thorganby has already advised, if you have an Economy 7 meter, you will have the option to choose whatever supplier you want, unlike now.

I would urge you to take up the offer of malc in post#2 above to email him, so that you can be put in touch with someone who knows what they are doing, as I fear you are not in contact with them yet.

A meter exchange is an option Flt. Lt. Biggles. As in my reply to jammy_jam_jam above, we'll give customers as much information as possible based on past experiences with Economy 18 meters and the associated heating arrangements. It's then down to them whether to accept this advice or go down a different path.

Hope this is a bit clearer.

Malc

jammy_jam_jam

Thanks Malc, I spoke to the simpler metering team again this morning and the rep said that as long as the electrician is happy that things will continue to work then they're happy to swap the meter. I got a confirmation of that via email which I have sent on to the letting agent so I'll see what they say.

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

jammy_jam_jam wrote: »

Thanks Malc, I spoke to the simpler metering team again this morning and the rep said that as long as the electrician is happy that things will continue to work then they're happy to swap the meter. I got a confirmation of that via email which I have sent on to the letting agent so I'll see what they say.

Thanks for the update jammy_jam_jam. I've also dropped you an email.

Malc

Flt._Lt._Biggles

E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc wrote: »

A meter exchange is an option Flt. Lt. Biggles. As in my reply to jammy_jam_jam above, we'll give customers as much information as possible based on past experiences with Economy 18 meters and the associated heating arrangements. It's then down to them whether to accept this advice or go down a different path.

Hope this is a bit clearer.

Malc

Thanks for that explanation.
Can I just clarify Eons position regarding E18 metering, please?

Because above in post#3 you indicated:

E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc wrote: »

Hello jammy_jam_jam and we're phasing out meters like Economy 18 as we're no longer able to support them.
...

And I remember previously, back in March 2018, you had posted something similar:

E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc wrote: »

Hello mal01502 and welcome to the Forums.

We're currently looking to phase out several different types of Restricted Hour Tariff (RHT) meters like Economy 18. This project is being looked after by our specialist Simpler Metering team. I'm sorry you've already spent a fair amount of time on the phone but do you know if you spoke to this team? If you haven't, I would suggest talking to them. They'll be able to go through the options we've available and let you know the unit prices per kWh and daily standing charges for your area. Please call the general number on your bills or our website and ask to be put through to them.

As you previously had 18 hours of off peak electricity for your heating and hot water, I suspect we originally offered Economy 10 as this is the nearest current equivalent. These meters have 10 off peak hours rather than 7 with Economy 7 and none with a single rate option.

Like Economy 18, Economy 10 meters are wired directly into the dedicated heating circuits at properties. This lets them turn the connected heating on/off at the set times. They, too, split the off peak hours into 3 periods at night, during the afternoon and in the evening. With our recent two rate Economy 10 meters, all electricity used during the 10 off peak hours is charged at the lower rates. Whereas, with most Economy 18 meters, only the 5 hours at night cover all the electricity used.

RHT meters like Economy 10 and 18 are designed to give customers off peak electricity at set times during each 24 hour period and are wired into the dedicated circuits to allow this. As molerat says, a qualified electrician might be needed if you are thinking of changing the wiring at your flat. Again, our Simpler Metering advisors will be able to talk to you about this.

Hope this helps point you in the right direction mal01502.

Malc

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=73963427&postcount=18

Are you now saying their is no requirement by Eon to have the actual E18 meter changed, only an option to have it changed (as is always the case, albeit a charge may usually apply); the only thing Eon is doing is stopping the E18 tariff?

I obviously understand that anyone retaining an E18 meter will be restricted as to the type of tariff Eon can offer them (possibly a single rate tariff only as that is a tariff Ofgem has mandated is available to anyone with multi-rate meters, not including E7), and probably no one else will accept them whilst they have that type of meter.

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

Flt._Lt._Biggles wrote: »

Thanks for that explanation.
Can I just clarify Eons position regarding E18 metering, please?

Because above in post#3 you indicated:



And I remember previously, back in March 2018, you had posted something similar:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=73963427&postcount=18

Are you now saying their is no requirement by Eon to have the actual E18 meter changed, only an option to have it changed (as is always the case, albeit a charge may usually apply); the only thing Eon is doing is stopping the E18 tariff?

I obviously understand that anyone retaining an E18 meter will be restricted as to the type of tariff Eon can offer them (possibly a single rate tariff only as that is a tariff Ofgem has mandated is available to anyone with multi-rate meters, not including E7), and probably no one else will accept them whilst they have that type of meter.

Hello Flt. Lt. Biggles and you're right, this project has been going on for some time.

The project covers a range of Restricted Hours Tariff (RHT) complex meters, like Economy 18, linked to certain types of heating arrangements. We're phasing these meters out as we're no longer able to support them.

Each set up is looked at individually as circumstances differ widely. The preferred option is to change the meter to Economy 7, Economy 10 or single rate depending on the needs of each customer.

To work, RHT meters are wired directly into the heating circuits at individual properties. This lets them turn the heating/hot water on and off at set times. Economy 10 is the nearest to many of these RHT set ups. These control the heating in a similar way.

Economy 7 also works with certain types of heating like storage heaters and electric water immersion heaters. Single rate meters would be good where properties have been redeveloped and different types of heating installed. Both Economy 7 and single rate don't have the restrictions of RHT or the more recent two-rate Economy 10 meters leaving customers free to change supplier/tariff when they wish.

We recognise Economy 18 is different from many of these other types of RHT meter. They were installed only in the Eastern electricity region (area 10) and to suit specific types of heating/hot water arrangements like underfloor heating and Red Ring boilers etc. Changing these meters potentially run the risk of limiting or even stopping the functionality of heating systems depending on how they're wired into the meter.

This isn't always the case and that's why we steer customers towards the Simpler Metering team so the individual circumstances can be investigated. It might be we're able to recommend a meter exchange (the preferred option) without significantly affecting the heating. If not, we'll look at different tariffs until we come up with a viable solution. This is something our technical people are working on.

For each case, our advisors attempt to give as much information as possible. In the end, it's the customer's choice as to which way they decide to go.

Hope this explains Flt. Lt. Biggles.

Malc

Flt._Lt._Biggles

Thank you for the clarification, Malc; the meters are being phased out.

I'm no electrician, but as I understand E7 it allows 7 hours of cheap rate electricity every day whatever that electricity is used for.

I believe E10, at least the E10 tariff Eon can still support going forward, works in a similar way expect it allows 10 hours cheap rate electicity per day whatever that electricity is used for.
(the notable downside is that anyone optiing for E10 metering will have difficulty switching supplier, whereas an E7 meter is almost universally accepted by other suppliers)

I agree that these types of metering may be set up so that certain circuits within a home only become live during the low rate period; ideal for switcching on/off night storage heaters, etc.
However, as I understand it, there is no obligation to have such circuits wired into the meter so that they are only live during the low rate period; they can all be live 24/7

I don't fully understand the wiring in a home currently with E18 metering, but cannot see why all circuits cannot be live 24/7 if the meter is changed. Indeed if a single rate meter is installed, that is what will occur (unless your engineer decides to leave some circuits without any power at all, and I'm sure that won't occur)

Obviously if a time of use tariff is still needed for certain appliances (such as night storage heaters), then those appliances will need some other timer fitted to them as they will not be controlled by the meter if they are wired to be live 24/7 via a suitable time of use meter. Fitting a suitable timer should not be an insurmountable issue for any half competent electrician, and if the internal circuitry already exists, such a timer (heavy duty) could probably be attached to the whole circuit required, not to each individual appliance.

I know I've had a house in the past with Economy 7 metering where all circuits were live 24/7 and it had timers fitted after the meter to control power to certain appliances only during the low rate period (e.g an immersion heater)

But I'm sure between your simpler metering team, and a customer's own electrician, an appropriate solution can be effectively realised.

thorganby

Flt._Lt._Biggles wrote: »

Thank you for the clarification, Malc; the meters are being phased out.

I'm no electrician, but as I understand E7 it allows 7 hours of cheap rate electricity every day whatever that electricity is used for.

Correct

I believe E10, at least the E10 tariff Eon can still support going forward, works in a similar way expect it allows 10 hours cheap rate electicity per day whatever that electricity is used for.
(the notable downside is that anyone optiing for E10 metering will have difficulty switching supplier, whereas an E7 meter is almost universally accepted by other suppliers)

Correct

I agree that these types of metering may be set up so that certain circuits within a home only become live during the low rate period; ideal for switcching on/off night storage heaters, etc.
However, as I understand it, there is no obligation to have such circuits wired into the meter so that they are only live during the low rate period; they can all be live 24/7

If eon originally provided a meter with a heat circuit that controls heating then surely is is reasonable to expect eon will replace their legacy E18 meter with a suitable E7 meter with a contactor to switch the heating circuit as before. The customer should not be worse off due to eon removing their legacy tariff.

I don't fully understand the wiring in a home currently with E18 metering, but cannot see why all circuits cannot be live 24/7 if the meter is changed. Indeed if a single rate meter is installed, that is what will occur (unless your engineer decides to leave some circuits without any power at all, and I'm sure that won't occur)

There are only two registers on all E7 meters, so all of the property will get the 7 hours on the night rate and 17 hours on standard day rate but the meter will control the heating during the E7 hours, obviously you would not want the heating circuit to be live 24/7.

Obviously if a time of use tariff is still needed for certain appliances (such as night storage heaters), then those appliances will need some other timer fitted to them as they will not be controlled by the meter if they are wired to be live 24/7 via a suitable time of use meter. Fitting a suitable timer should not be an insurmountable issue for any half competent electrician, and if the internal circuitry already exists, such a timer (heavy duty) could probably be attached to the whole circuit required, not to each individual appliance.

Customers should not be informed that they need to consult an electrician before requesting an E7 meter and the customer should not have to provide any timers.

I know I've had a house in the past with Economy 7 metering where all circuits were live 24/7 and it had timers fitted after the meter to control power to certain appliances only during the low rate period (e.g an immersion heater)

There are basically two different implementations of E7 metering but when there is a separate heating circuit then this heat circuit is controlled by the meter.

But I'm sure between your simpler metering team, and a customer's own electrician, an appropriate solution can be effectively realised.

This is not the first time that the simpler metering team have given incorrect advice and mislead their customers regarding their business decision to remove legacy restricted hour tariffs!

..........

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

Flt._Lt._Biggles wrote: »

Thank you for the clarification, Malc; the meters are being phased out.

I'm no electrician, but as I understand E7 it allows 7 hours of cheap rate electricity every day whatever that electricity is used for.

I believe E10, at least the E10 tariff Eon can still support going forward, works in a similar way expect it allows 10 hours cheap rate electicity per day whatever that electricity is used for.
(the notable downside is that anyone optiing for E10 metering will have difficulty switching supplier, whereas an E7 meter is almost universally accepted by other suppliers)

I agree that these types of metering may be set up so that certain circuits within a home only become live during the low rate period; ideal for switcching on/off night storage heaters, etc.
However, as I understand it, there is no obligation to have such circuits wired into the meter so that they are only live during the low rate period; they can all be live 24/7

I don't fully understand the wiring in a home currently with E18 metering, but cannot see why all circuits cannot be live 24/7 if the meter is changed. Indeed if a single rate meter is installed, that is what will occur (unless your engineer decides to leave some circuits without any power at all, and I'm sure that won't occur)

Obviously if a time of use tariff is still needed for certain appliances (such as night storage heaters), then those appliances will need some other timer fitted to them as they will not be controlled by the meter if they are wired to be live 24/7 via a suitable time of use meter. Fitting a suitable timer should not be an insurmountable issue for any half competent electrician, and if the internal circuitry already exists, such a timer (heavy duty) could probably be attached to the whole circuit required, not to each individual appliance.

I know I've had a house in the past with Economy 7 metering where all circuits were live 24/7 and it had timers fitted after the meter to control power to certain appliances only during the low rate period (e.g an immersion heater)

But I'm sure between your simpler metering team, and a customer's own electrician, an appropriate solution can be effectively realised.

Morning Flt. Lt. Biggles and you're welcome. Happy to clarify as much as possible.

Like you, I'm no electrician and so can't comment on the technical side of things. You're right about Economy 7 meters giving customers 7 hours of electricity at off-peak prices for all usage.

You're also spot on about the more recent two-rate Economy 10 meters. These allow 10 hours of off-peak electricity for all usage. This is split into three periods at night, during the afternoon and in the evening. This differs from older three-rate Economy 10 meters, in that, the older meters only gave 5 hours for all usage (at night). The other 5 hours were for heating and hot water through dedicated circuits. We're replacing these older three-rate meters through the simpler metering project.

As you say, customers with Economy 10 meters, both two and three rate, have limited tariff options; whereas there's much more choice for Economy 7 customers with us and with the other suppliers.

Thanks Flt. Lt. Biggles.

Malc

jammy_jam_jam

Quick update - after some back and forth with the letting agent/landlord they're happy to go ahead with the meter swap so I've booked that in for a couple of week's time and while the landlord won't pay for the timer on the immersion heater the cost wasn't that high so we're going to pay for that ourselves.