Planning Permission - Cameras & Signage

Not_Scammed

Hi, I must admit I tend to only check here when sorting out a PCN for a family member or friend.

I'm currently at the initial appeal stage with one of the usual scammers for an elderly relative who they claim overstayed in a retail car park by a few minutes. I've added a bit about a reasonable adjustment being made to the current appeal in the Newbie Thread.

The car park in question used to be 'policed' by a goon with some kind of handheld patrolling the site - this changed recently with the installation of anpr cameras and new signage. There has been quite a discussion on social media for this area with all the usual 'ignore them' arm chair lawyers displaying their ignorance LOL.

I seem to remember someone one here trying to create trouble for PPCs with regard to them not obtaining planning permission for cameras and signs - did this bear fruit or was it a dead end?

Thanks again to the regulars, your time and effort is much appreciated.

NS

KeithP

Not_Scammed wrote: »

I seem to remember someone one here trying to create trouble for PPCs with regard to them not obtaining planning permission for cameras and signs - did this bear fruit or was it a dead end?

Courts appear to take the view that this is a matter for the Local Authority, and if they can't be bothered to 'police' it then why should the courts be interested.

The_Deep

IIMU that each council takes a different view on this.

BrownTrout

People on the CAG forum push the Planning permission angle all the time, ive seen some one tied up in knotts over it!, they dont like being told they are wrong

Umkomaas

I seem to remember someone one here trying to create trouble for PPCs with regard to them not obtaining planning permission for cameras and signs - did this bear fruit or was it a dead end?

Waste of time unless you are prepared to put in serious effort and dogged determination to pursue the council to, in turn, give the PPC a hard time. Just bumping gums about it on forums is a poor use of time and oxygen.

One thing for certain, even if the council acts, it won't result in the PCN being cancelled.

Fruitcake

I suggest you check if planning permission for cameras and advertising consent for signage has been approved. If not, mention it in your appeal, but don't waste time on it.
How long ago was the change to ANPR Scameras made? If the PPC is a BPA member and the change was less than a month, then quote the bedding in period mentioned in the BPA CoP.

If IAS, then don't bother.

Half_way

The planning permission/advertising consent angle is a second front you can open up, if you wish to, however it will have zero effect on dealing with the parking charge notice

You would be much better off fighting the parking charge notice, and then if you want ( revenge) go for the planning permission advertising consent after, and only after.




As for you case, you say a few minutes? how many is a few less than 10, more than 15 , less than 20, 30 minutes, more?


Does this elderly relative have mobility issues ?



Who's car park was this?

BiggerThanThat

I have a similar question on this, well maybe more of a comment, so I think I should ask here rather than start a new thread?
I have read the info above and on another post from back in 2017.
I read through the various bits of info on signs and the one thing that jumped out at me was that you MUST get planning permission for lit signs.

Now, BPA COP says 

"Signs should be readable and understandable at all times, including during the hours of darkness or at dusk if and when parking enforcement activity takes place at those times."

and

"This can be achieved in a variety of ways such as by direct lighting or by using the lighting for the parking area. If the sign itself is not directly or indirectly lit, we suggest that it should be made of a retro-reflective material similar to that used on public roads and described in the Traffic Signs Manual."

So my thinking is: 

Lit signs need planning permission, most PCC will not bother, so you might encounter signs that are unlit. 

If parking enforcement takes place during the hours of darkness and signs are unlit then there can (perhaps) be an extra level of scrutiny on tickets issued in the dark. 

Proper BSI standard retroflective signs are more expensive than non retroreflective or 'shiny' signs (very specific requirements - info in the Traffic Signs Manual), so might not be commonly used.

Also, as I have found out, retroreflection only works if it is used in/on a place where the lights of the vehicle will fall on the sign - the whole point is that the retro reflection is the reflection back-to-you of your car's headlights - if your lights don't fall on them then there is no retro reflection. The retro relection reflects light back the way it came, so saying they are retro-reflecting ambient light doesn't really work.

So poor placement of and/or using signs that aren't retroflective in a parking area that is not well-lit might be an appeal point.

One might argue that unlit entrance signs which "play an important part in establishing a parking contract” (BPA COP), must:

as well as being "...placed so that it is readable by drivers without their needing to look away from the road ahead." 

also,

be placed so that there is a reasonable chance of them falling under the lights of any vehicle that enters the car park?

Just some thoughts...

Edited to correct a typo.

D_P_Dance

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP., it can cause the scammer extra costs and work, and in some cases, cancellation.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.