Executor addresses and access to the will after death

Irratus_Rusticus

Having read the forum, I decided not to go for a 'free' will and want to use a local solicitor for peace of mind.

I researched local prices and before making the appointment asked my chosen firm whether I could pay them to deposit the will with the Probate Registry, or would I do this bit myself. I'm not clear the person I spoke to was a qualified solicitor, but I summarise how the phone call went using "Sol" for simplicity:-

Sol: "We safely store our own wills. The Probate Registry doesn't store wills. It is only involved after death".

Me: "I thought they did? If you do it, who can access the will from you when I die?

Sol. "We'll have the addresses of your executors and we'll require them all to confirm who is collecting the will."

Me: "What if I can't give addresses of all my chosen executors who are my grown up children-due to estrangement- can't I just include their names and identify them as my children? I don't want to leave an estranged child out either as a co-executor or as an equal beneficiary. If I select only one, if that one dies before me I am back to square one. Even if not, leaving one child off might cause arguments for the other I wish to avoid. Surely addresses change over time anyway?"

Sol: "You should keep us updated when any addresses change and we will store the updates alongside your will. If you don't supply addresses, we will need to trace all your executors at the time and confirm with them individually that they agree which one will withdraw the will."

Me: "How will anyone know you have my will?"

Sol: "It will state this in the Will."

Me: "So I need to have a copy for people to know you have the original? Otherwise how would anyone know?"

Sol: "The copy can't be used. They will still need the original that we store. Our name will be on the will and copy."

Me: "But why do they all have to agree who retrieves it? By your logic, wouldn't you have to be sure one or more hasn't died? Who instructs and pays you to trace all my executors?"

Sol: "Payment would come from your estate."

Me: "Who would authorise you to act? Why can't one executor collect the will without needing you to trace all of them to get their agreement?"

Sol: "We require all executors to confirm they agree who will have possession of the will."

Me: "But surely if a will is deposited at the Probate Registry, it is sealed before they get it, so they don't know who the executors are anyway? How would they trace all the executors to agree who can withdraw it?"

Sol: "I am not aware that the Probate Registry stores wills."

Me: "I believe that they do. Thank you for your time."


I downloaded and read the PA7 (will withdrawal form) from the Probate Registry. It merely asks under section B for the requester to tick whether they are an executor or 'someone other than an executor'.

It only allows for one name and address!

I could solve this conundrum by having the will made and taking the original home and posting it off to the Probate Registry myself?

Surely the PR doesn't need all executors to agree who withdraws it?

What am I missing?

Keep_pedalling

Obviously the person you spoke to Was not up to speed with PR storage, but having said that most solicitors will store the original will at no cost, and will provide you with copies to keep at home.

Your executors should not really have a problem in finding where your will is stored as it is the sort of information that you leave along with records of gifts and account information.

It is certainly easier for a single executor, or even a non executor, to retrieve a will from the PR than it is from a solicitor, but that is probably because a solicitor would be open to a claim from beneficiaries if they had not carried out due diligence on who they were releasing the will too, and that person failed to execute the will correctly. Solicitors are highly regulated the PR is this instance is simply acting as a storage facility.

MovingForwards

How it works in reality.

For ease 'you' are 'Y', 'solicitors' are 's'

Y make a will with S, give all current known names and addresses of executors and beneficiaries. Will gets made, S provides you with a photocopy of the will and as it's has a cover it states name / address of the firm.

Y keeps the copy in with other important papers and tell executors where the copy is and which firm have the original.

Y pop in to S, or send a letter, confirming an executor or beneficiary has moved. S puts said letter in with original will and keeps a copy of said letter on the paper / electronic file. This happens as many times as needed throughout your life.

Y die, executors grab copy will, contact S, arrange appointment, go in with ID and original death certificate, if more than one executor others need to provide written proof they are happy with one executor collecting will and also provide ID. Executor walks out with will, counts up estate, goes for probate.

If Y have the original will at home and die in a fire, the executors have a game of trying to prove the photocopy is the last will you ever had prepared.

S keep all original wills, deeds and other important client documents in a strong room, either onsite or elsewhere, reinforced steel, watertight, fireproof etc. They also pay a high insurance premium each year in case of any errors.

Now I have written all this, got to ask, are you in Scotland?

p00hsticks

Irratus_Rusticus wrote: »

What am I missing?

I'm no expert but I think you may have the wrong organisation, which may be causing some of the confusion. As far as I'm aware, the probate registry only keeps records of wills that have been presented to the Probate Office for probate - i.e. after the will maker has died.

However, I'm sure there is some organisation - not the Probate Registry - that stores copies of wills not yet executed.

We had ours drawn up during last years free wills month (https://freewillsmonth.org.uk/) and I'm sure the solicitor said that they would be lodged in some central repositiory, but I can't remember the details off the top of my head. I'll dig out the info when I can and update this post.

Savvy_Sue

Are you sure that the estranged child will be able to 'work' with their sibling to execute the will? Is there no neutral relative you could add?

Mojisola

p00hsticks wrote: »

However, I'm sure there is some organisation - not the Probate Registry - that stores copies of wills not yet executed.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-to-deposit-a-will-with-the-probate-service-a-guide-for-people-who-want-to-deposit-a-will-for-safekeeping-pa7

Irratus_Rusticus

Thank you all for giving your time to answer. Sorry for my long posts.

To cover the facts asked... I live in England and I have no reason to think my adult children will not support each other in this. The reason I want them to be co-executors and equal share beneficiaries and will specify no other gifts etc is to make it simple for them. I have no one else as "neutral relative" to nominate and don't wish to nominate a solicitor.

I have checked and you can opt to deposit a will for safekeeping with the Probate Service. The fee is £20 and you first get a "safe custody will envelope pack" and seal up the will and send it off with a witness's signature. This suggests they cannot know who the executors are? But I assume there is a covering form I haven't seen, so maybe that requires names and addresses too! You get a "certificate of deposit" for your records.

Maybe I overthink things, but I now see catches everywhere.

On the one hand, per the PA7 form the Probate Registry seems happy with a single individual requesting the will after death, on the other hand it also seems happy with a non-executor applying, and gives no guidance I have found on the circumstances where this would be okay.

But at least I could store the will with them (having had it done by a solicitor and prised it from their hands) and I could give photocopies to my nominated executors via the non estranged one with the address of the PR office, if I could figure out in what circumstances somebody else could claim the will from the PR.

On the other hand, per MovingForwards, a solicitor who stores the will demands a testator (?) to give all addresses and to keep updating them, and then requires all executors to give written authority that one can collect the will. That seems a hurdle too many at a bad time. On the other hand, same solicitor will start charging to trace executors who have moved, to require their written agreement should the testator fail to update addresses. No clarity on who actually authorises this work but the estate pays? And I can't give all the addresses anyhow.

I bought a textbook on UK DIY wills that does not show addresses of executors in any of the various examples, e.g. 'I appoint my wife X and my son Y to be my executor(s) or whoever of them survives me'.

I'm thinking I should go ahead and find a solicitor to do me a will and appoint my adult kids by name and relationship with me, name them as equal beneficiaries, grab the original will and send
to the PR and give photocopies to the kids and keep one at home.

Surely that works?

The last thing I want is hassles or delays for the one who is available and wants to get the will at the most stressful time but the other has gone off to climb the Cairngorms for six months and can't be reached. Yes they have to work together for probate, but with the Will in hand at least one can get funds for the funeral and things can crack on. I don't want to be stored in a garden shed while the other is traced!

Mojisola

Irratus_Rusticus wrote: »

I bought a textbook on UK DIY wills that does not show addresses of executors in any of the various examples, e.g. 'I appoint my wife X and my son Y to be my executor(s) or whoever of them survives me'.

I'm thinking I should go ahead and find a solicitor to do me a will and appoint my adult kids by name and relationship with me, name them as equal beneficiaries, grab the original will and send to the PR and give photocopies to the kids and keep one at home.

We've never given the addresses of our executors in our wills.

We've always left the originals with the solicitors who made them.

We have copies at home and the executors know which solicitors have the originals.

Savvy_Sue

I can also confirm that when I've been co-executor of two wills, it has been no problem for the other executor to collect the originals from the firm of solicitors who'd drawn the wills up. I may have signed an authority for my co-exec to collect it, I don't remember, but it really wasn't hard.

So yes, I suspect you are overthinking it.

The Probate Service has got to allow for someone other than the executor(s) to retrieve, to cover the situation where all executors have either died or are otherwise unable to act.

TBagpuss

Solciitors will ask for ID and will require all executors to agree to avoid the risk of fraud. They need to know that the person they release the will to is entitled to it (hence the ID check) and since all executors are jointly entitled to it, they ned them all to agree.

Asking you to update the relevant addresss is simply good houskeeping. It makes it easier (and therefore cheaper) to check that the ID matachs the person who is entitled to the will, and makes it easier to contact the executors if necessary.



I think if you store your will with any external organisation they will (or should!) be carryong out similar checks to ensure that whoever asks them for the will is actually entitled to it.

You could chose to appoint 2 of your childnre as executors and still split the estate equally.

Irratus_Rusticus

Thanks again.

Having researched experiences some have had in getting wills from solicitor safes after a death, including here on MSE, this debate comes down to what is 'appropriate due diligence'. It is clear to me solicitors have varying standards. He/she who holds the key to the safe gets to make the rules - bit late if the rules are unreasonable after a death and at a time of high pressure for the bereaved.

To be clear, my bone with the OP firm was being told if I did not give them updated addresses THEY would have to start tracing executors and charge the estate. A moment's thought shows how nonsensical this is, surely.

By some or other means somebody would trace the will (Certainty registry maybe) and approach the firm holding it. If an executor comes to them, able to prove who they are, how could that one executor instruct the firm to do the other executor traces and charge this to the estate? That executor would be undertaking personal costs? The firm could not just crack on because it considers it 'due diligence'. Or could it? Where would it end? How much would it cost?

Prior addresses on the will or file are not needed by any law I can find - as also answered above. If its good enough for the Probate Registry not to keep updating executor addresses, it should be good enough for solicitors that named executors are clearly identified in the will - relationship to testator, full name and perhaps DOB for good measure - and can prove at the time who they are. People have an annoying habit of moving around a lot these days, even between countries. Executors even get married and change their names and half of these may divorce and change their names again. Where would it end.

Have since found a local solicitor who agrees no executor addresses are needed in the will and I do not have to keep updating them on every change of address etc.

No use having verbal assurances made only to a dead bloke, so I intend to ask for this in writing along with the steps my executors would need to take to get the will. Fee is less than OP firm too. Appointment made for next week.

I've read the 80 plus page Law Society protocol on wills. It's mandatory to members of the LS quality scheme (WIQS). No idea how many solicitors sign up to WIQS, but the protocol is full of useful information to the curious testator. Sadly makes no mention I could find of what is meant by "appropriate due diligence" at the retrieval stage.

If my solicitor refuses to confirm in writing I will take my will home and send it off to the Probate Registry. I'm now unanimous on this.