Euro ticket appeal - school parking grace period??

stumpyaura

Hi all, I have searched for an answer elsewhere but can't find this specific circumstance. Next to my daughter's school is a Harvester car park which has always been allowed for school pick ups/drop offs. Recently Euro car parks have started operating. The boards state you must enter your registration when you visit The Harvester. The school has sent out: 'working with The Harvester, it has been agreed on the 12 July the new system will go live. All will have a 30 minute grace to drop off and pick up children' - this is not on the boards stating the parking conditions, and does not involve anyone entering their details at The Harvester.

I got a ticket for being in the carpark 30 minutes and 10 seconds during the last week of school. I did the copy and paste template appeal which has come back rejected. I didn't mention about the grace period because I didn't know the best way to word it all-should I have?? Thought I just had to send the template, Feels confusing as nothing official in the carpark T&Cs although do have the evidence from the school.

Any advice about the POPLA appeal stage very gratefully received. Rejection appeal letter typed out below:

Date of issues 17/07/19
Time of issue: 15:30:00
Time entered carpark: 14:59:50
"Having carefully considered the evidence provided by you we have decided to reject your appeal for the following reasons:
⦁ The carpark is operated by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR). Cameras capture an image of vehicles entering and leaving the car park and calculate their length of stay on site
⦁ Please be advised M&B Harvester Staunton Arms Portsmouth is a Pay By Phone car park where charges apply 24 hours a day Monday to Sunday including Bank Holidays
⦁ Please note after checking Pay By Phone - we are unable to see an account for the vehicle registration
⦁ Euro Car Parks do not need to provide evidence of who was driving the vehicle. It is the registered keeper's responsilbility to inform of the full name and address within 28 days begininni with the day after the notice was given. If the full amount remains unpaid, under the subject of the Act to recover from the keeper of the vehicle at the time it was parked so much of that amount which remains unpaid.
⦁ We note that in your letter you state that the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) is not enforceable as you have currently not entered into a 'contract' with Euro Car Parks. I would respectfully remind that contract law applies in this instance.
⦁ The car park is private property and signage on entrance and within the private car park clearly set out the rules and regulation of the car park and tarrifs (if applicable). By entering the car park, parking and leaving the vehicle the driver has accepted the 'contract' and therefore if the driver fail to comply with the terms and conditions a parking charge notice will be correctly issued.
⦁ I can confirm that the notice has been issued correctly and will remain payable"
Photos enclosed were the car entering and leaving, and the board with the T&Cs

Redx

Seems to be a special grace period that was overstayed by the driver , far exceeding the BPA Cop of typically up to 10 minutes

This can be appealed by the keeper in the usual manner , with a typical popla appeal to follow

See posts 1 & 3 of the newbies sticky thread

Popla appeal is based on

No landowner authority
Poor and inadequate signage
Pofa issues
BPA Cop failures

As it's a special concession I would ensure that 25 minutes becomes the target by any driver using this concession , tardiness will always result in grief

It may be a strange scenario we haven't seen before , hence why you found nothing , after 30 minutes extended grace period it reverts to the signage rules and BPA Cop , so take heed of it

fisherjim

Of course the appeal came back rejected you are dealing with greedy scammers who want your money, they aren't likely to change the signage that will cost them money and won't trap anyone will it.


What did the Harvester manager say when you asked him/ her (nicely) to get the charge cancelled?

stumpyaura

Thanks for the info, I'll have a read. So, you wouldn't advise any mention of the (unofficial) grace period? I wondered if I could argue that 30 minutes parking doesn't include leaving and entering showing the extra 10 seconds were reasonable?

stumpyaura

fisherjim wrote: »

Of course the appeal came back rejected you are dealing with greedy scammers who want your money, they aren't likely to change the signage that will cost them money and won't trap anyone will it.


What did the Harvester manager say when you asked him/ her (nicely) to get the charge cancelled?

Coincidentally they had a load of other tickets issued by mistake that were under 30 mins so lots of angry parents. Harvester allocated someone to deal with it who never replied to my emails or was able to be contacted (all sub-30 mins tickets were cancelled)

Redx

stumpyaura wrote: »

Thanks for the info, I'll have a read. So, you wouldn't advise any mention of the (unofficial) grace period? I wondered if I could argue that 30 minutes parking doesn't include leaving and entering showing the extra 10 seconds were reasonable?

Even applying all of the BPA Cop grace periods doesn't amount to 30 minutes , so because the special period is a local agreement then it's hard to argue an overstay beyond 30 minutes , hence why the sub 30 minutes PCN were cancelled

I would find it difficult to justify a stay that exceeds 30 minutes , because defaulting the parking rules turns the parking contract into the default tariff of £100 for breaking the special concession

By all means argue it , but you would be lucky to convince popla of this

fisherjim

Look at this from this angle:


The landowner is being very reasonable and generous allowing non customers to use their car park out of hours free of charge.


The PPC whose only source of income from that car park is issuing charges for breaking the T&C's, seem to have warmed their cold hearts above freezing point to go along with this by setting up a 30 minute grace period.
This is never going to be on the signage encouraging all and sundry to take advantage, and is very unusual.


The PPC is therefore going to clobber everyone going over this local agreement so any appeal to them will fail, the signage does not mention a grace period and rarely does, so unless you find any other technical or signage deficiency you are up a gum tree with that.


The Landowner may help but you need to be very apologetic and nice over this.


If it went to court who knows, it's a gambol but if you loose will cost more.


Pushing this kind benefit by the Harvester to the wire like this really is a bit of a liberty to be honest, but the route you take is really up to you now.

Umkomaas

ECP have never taken anyone to court, despite issuing hundreds of thousands of tickets a year, and almost every other PPC issuing court proceedings.

So this is not likely to go further, although I have to add this caveat. While they are not currently litigious, they do have up to 6 years to pursue you. It would take a brave man/woman to guarantee their behaviour between now and 2025. We can help if you receive a formal Letter Before Claim/Action or real court papers.

You need to get photos of the signage in the car park, showing distribution and sufficiently focused to read the small print. Also do you have any school documentation with shows the actual written agreement with the Harvester - that might be useful?

By all means appeal to POPLA - costs you nothing and the decision is not binding in you. If your appeal is really 'beefy', ECP have a record of not contesting some POPLA appeals which would cause them excessive work to deal with. You need to do your research on this via the forum. So use keywords such as 'ECP POPLA ' (and similar) to interrogate the forum threads/posts via its powerful search engine and read recent cases to help you build your own ECP/POPLA appeal. Let us see your draft for critique and fine tuning. Don't miss your POPLA deadline.

The NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #3 guides you through the POPLA process.

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Ralph-y

probably wrong here ....


but should the 30 min be considered a free parking period and then a grace period ?


Ralph hides ........;)


Ralph:cool:

Umkomaas

Seems this is a P&D car park but with a free period for school drop-off and pick-up.

The OP can try her luck on a grace period-based POPLA appeal, but I wouldn't hold out much hope. I think the PPC might say that the BPA guidelines suggest 20 minutes, but they are providing a further 10 minutes to that.

NeilCr

Practically -and I know I'm not good on the rules!

Google Maps show that it is one minute from the school I assume OP's daughter uses and The Harvester. The Harvester opens for breakfasts at 8am on Fridays and 9am other weekdays

In all honesty I think this is a reasonable arrangement that has been reached between the school and The Harvester and 30 minutes seems more than generous in the circumstances. The car park that is available to our gym users is also the car park for a infants and junior school drop off and pick up. That car park is full ten minutes before school starts and empties out ten minutes after

OP. Was there a particular reason that you took as long as you did?. If there was and it was school related perhaps you could see if they may help?