Defendant filed a counter-claim, But no order was made by the court that I had to file a defence.

October868

Yes exactly.


At the time of making this purchase I was a consumer.
I had a full-time job (nothing to do with videos or sales), simply decided to spend abit of money ordering a batch of custom-videos.
(Originally I planned to order just 1, but the defendant was pretty good at sales technique to encourage me to order a larger quantity).

KeithP

October868 wrote: »

What is a 'non-commercial' sale please?
(As in my view any form of business/sales activity is a commercial activity)

Me selling a television that I have used for years is just one example of a 'non-commercial' sale.

But buying something specifically to sell is a commercial activity... aka a business activity.

That unambiguous statement of yours that I quoted earlier clearly demonstrates to me that you were acting as a business and you should perhaps be looking at the Sale of Goods Act 1979 rather than the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

October868

Hello and thankyou for your reply.


I wasn't purchasing for the purpose of selling though (as I would stand virtually no chance of ever even recouping my money, let alone ever make a net profit).
I was purchasing for myself, but decided to have the arrangement setup to give me the potential of hopefully recouping some of the purchase cost though (although I never actually sold any of the clips).


I will review the Act which you have mentioned, but the Consumer Rights Act clearly does define a consumer as-

"An individual acting for purposes that are wholly or mainly outside that individual's trade, business, craft or profession." This extends beyond any previous definition in UK orEU law as it includes contracts that are entered into for a combination of personal and business reasons".

That describes my activity perfectly, as it was for a combination of business & personal reasons, but wasn't anything to do with my main job/profession.

Whereas if I tried to claim that I was 'a business/trader' during that time, well that quite simply would be false, as I only ever made 1 order from the defendant, and never even attempted to sell a single copy of the product.

BoGoF

October868 wrote: »

Yes exactly.


At the time of making this purchase I was a consumer.
I had a full-time job (nothing to do with videos or sales), simply decided to spend abit of money ordering a batch of custom-videos.
(Originally I planned to order just 1, but the defendant was pretty good at sales technique to encourage me to order a larger quantity).

You keep saying that but it doesn't make it the case.

If any of your arguments admit that part of the agreement was that you can sell the product on ( and we are not talking a 'normal' purchase here) then you are on a very dodgy wicket here.

da_rule

I’m not sure if the Op has put this in the other post but it may be helpful to know:

1) what are you claiming from them and why (i.e. did they not produce the video, was it poor quality etc); and
2) what have they claimed from you in the counterclaim? A counterclaim is quite narrow, in that it has to be linked to your original claim.

October868

I paid them just over £3,000 to produce a batch of custom-scripted video clips for me.


They produced half the quantity (so upto the value of just under £1,500) but then said they had spent the rest of the money on their own household expenses (even though 1/2 of the money had been paid to them specifically to pay their co-performers),
but so because they said they no longer had the money, well they no longer would be able to hire their co-performer to produce the rest of the videos.

They apologised and offered to repay me it via installments, I agreed and politely requested a few times over a the course of a week what dates of each month the repayment installment would be and for what amount (however they ignored all my emails).
I then stated what the required date & sum would be, they blocked me via our primary method of all communication (thus making it clear they no longer wished to communicate/work with me), and the emailed me threatening to sue me... ect

So I subsequently gave them notice of my intention to file a money claim against them | There was no further communication between myself and them until 6months later (when the 3rd party debt order froze money in their bank account).

#

And their defence/counterclaim is that they accept owing me the £1,500, but claim that if they had continued to produce videos for me over the future months/years that they would of earned £5,000 - £7,000+ from me, and thus they are claiming for that sum minus the £1,500.

They also write in their counterclaim claim about how they left their job (4-months after I filed the court-claim | although this was also apparently 2 months before they were aware the claim existed),
and even though this job was simply a zero-hours contract self-employed contractor job which they did a few days per month (depending on how many shifts they were offered by the company), because they left working there in September, but apparently didn't start their next job (same role, self-employed contractor) for 6-8weeks, the sum of money which they would of apparently earned during that time I am liable to pay them as part of the counterclaim (even though the jobs have nothing whatsoever to do with me, nor with the videos which she produced for me).

And she also claims that when she produced the clips for me, that she apparently didn't include certain production costs into the price which she quoted & charged me, but so is now back-charging me (1 year later) by saying that she should of charged me a few hundred pounds extra in total.

KeithP

October868 wrote: »

I wasn't purchasing for the purpose of selling though...

Let me remind you...

You told us:

October868 wrote: »

...it having been produced on the specific clear basis that it was for commercial sale by me

Manxman_in_exile

October868 wrote: »

I paid them just over £3,000 to produce a batch of custom-scripted video clips for me...

Not knowing the exact circumstances, this seems an unusual consumer purchase to me.


Notwithstanding the statutory definition of "consumer", I think the usual meaning of consumer is someone who purchases something to use for their own personal use (I know it's not as simple as that, but bear with me...)


I'm sure the question is likely to come up, but how did you intend to use the "custom-scripted video clips"? I'm struggling to come up with a believable consumer purpose, unless it was just for the personal satisfaction of having written the scripts and seeing them performed by actors (a bit like vanity publishing) or they're for some sort of family entertainment.


But if either of those explanations is true, I don't see how you could have any realistic expectation of being able to sell them on afterwards. If they don't have any business or commercial value what sort of retail market and value is there in what are essentially sophisticated "home movies"?

unholyangel

October868 wrote: »

I will review the Act which you have mentioned, but the Consumer Rights Act clearly does define a consumer as-

"An individual acting for purposes that are wholly or mainly outside that individual's trade, business, craft or profession." This extends beyond any previous definition in UK orEU law as it includes contracts that are entered into for a combination of personal and business reasons".

No it doesn't. What the CRA actually says is:

(3)“Consumer” means an individual acting for purposes that are wholly or mainly outside that individual's trade, business, craft or profession.

The accompanying explanatory notes provide:

36.Another key definition is the definition of “consumer”. Firstly, a consumer must be an “individual” (that is, a natural person) – the Act’s protection for consumers does not apply to small businesses or legally incorporated organisations (e.g. companies formed by groups of residents). If a group of consumers contracts for goods, services or digital content, they are not left without protection. For example if one consumer makes all the arrangements for a group to go to the theatre or to go on holiday, depending on the circumstances, each member of the group may be able to enforce their rights or the person who made the arrangements may have to enforce the rights on behalf of the group. The other main restriction on who is a consumer is that a consumer must be acting wholly or mainly outside their trade, business, craft or profession. This means, for example, that a person who buys a kettle for their home, works from home one day a week and uses it on the days when working from home would still be a consumer. Conversely a sole trader that operates from a private dwelling who buys a printer of which 95% of the use is for the purposes of the business, is not likely to be held to be a consumer (and therefore the rights in this Part will not protect that sole trader but they would have to look to other legislation. For example, if the sole trader were buying goods, they would have to look to the SGA for protections about the quality of the goods).

It all depends on the purpose when you entered the contract. If you purchase something with the intent to resell it and change your mind and keep it, it doesn't make you a consumer.

Conversely, if you purchase something for your own private use and then decide to sell it on, it doesn't mean you weren't a consumer.

If you notice in the examples given by the legislation itself, the use of the item is incidental and not part of the reason it was purchased. The same can't seem to be said for your circumstances.

Of course, it would be for her to raise that point. But if she did, I think it would be successful based on what you've told us.

October868

Everyone in this thread seems fixated on if I would be deemed as a consumer or mutal business-partner.... :S

The defendant herself has always stated to the court that I was merely a consumer, nothing more.

I personally wouldn't of minded being a trader, as could've just used the alternative legislation, but the defendant made it clear in all her statements that she regarded me as a consumer, so I have accepted that role, thus making it an agreed fact.