PCN for not making payment - rental car

person123

I have read the newbie thread a few times and have searched the forum but haven't found anything that is directly on point. Any advice as to what we should do would be appreciated.

We hired a Zip Car on 30 June 2019 and while in possession, we went into a supermarket carpark - I (the passenger) left the car immediately and went inside the supermarket while my partner (the driver) stayed inside the car to make a call. At one point, he went and looked at the parking sign and saw that it was a private carpark where you had to pay, he went back to the car and within a few minutes I had returned so we drove off.

Zip Car has now forwarded us a Parking Charge Notice issued by Civil Enforcement Ltd requesting payment of GBP100 if paid within 28 days and GBP60 if paid within 14 days for "payment not made in accordance with terms displayed on signage". They claim that we arrived in the car park at 13:30 and left at 13:43 (total of 13 minutes) and provided photos of our car coming in and out of the car park.

The PCN Issue Date on the PCN states 3 July 2019, there is a stamp on the letter noting 9 July 2019, which I assume is the date that Zip Car received this. Zip Car sent this to us on 23 July 2019 saying that they would make the payment within 5 days unless we respond. We responded immediately saying we want to dispute this on the basis that the driver never left the car and also it was for a very short amount of time. Zip Car subsequently responded today (7 August) stating that whether the driver was or was not in the car was not in dispute, and basically we are still liable to pay.

It doesn't sound like Zip Car has notified Civil Enforcement Ltd that they are a vehicle hire company and we haven't received any correspondence from CE Ltd directly to date. In any event, I was the hirer but my partner was the driver in this instance.

I have looked through the Newbie thread and searched the forum but haven't identified any failures by CE Ltd to comply with legal requirements - e.g. they do refer to Sch 4 of the POFA2012, the letter is stated to be issued within 3 days of the incident date, they have included photos of the car (but not of the sign), they don't mention its a penalty. However, we thought the fine seemed excessive given the short period (same posts talk about grace periods of 15 - 20 minutes).

Our question is therefore:

1. Is there any point in trying to appeal this or should we let Zip Car pay?

2. From the newbie post, I understand if we want to appeal we should (i) use the online complaints mechanism on CE Ltd's website to notify them that I was the keeper (but not the driver) of the car and that they should contact me in all instances rather than Zip Car (ii) notify Zip Car and to tell them not to make payment. However, I'm not sure what happens after this - on what grounds can be dispute the payment?

Redx

1) if you allow ZIP to pay then they may charge you the pcn fee plus an admin fee , not recommended because you will then have to try to claim it back

2) ZIP car should have notified CEL who the hirer was under POFA

UNTIL THEY DO THIS THEY ARE LIABLE FOR THE CHARGE, NOT THE HIRER , forwarding the NTK to the hirer does not change their position, after 6.5 years of POFA they should know this by now

until you receive an NTH in your own name, its nothing to do with you

read the edna basher posts at the bottom of post #1 of the NEWBIES thread, to try to understand it

if ZIP are BVRLA members, tell them to follow BVRLA guidelines as well as POFA and name the hirer


grace periods are defined in the BPA CoP, clause #13, something you do not appear to have downloaded or read yet, certainly not more than 10 minutes on a p & d car park, hence why CEL issued the pcn


CEL cannot and do not issue a penalty, only an invoice

person123

Thank you. As you have recommended, I have emailed Zipcar and asked them to follow the BVRLA guidelines and POFA provisions and notify the issuer of the notice of the hirer. I have also told them not to pay the charge and we will deal with the issuer directly once we hear from them. Thank you for the reminder that this at least means we won't need to pay Zipcar's admin charges.

I have read through the edna basher posts a few times, it doesn't seem to be directly on point for our situation but seems in line with what we have done above - i.e. notify the issuer that we, rather than Zipcar are the keeper and deal with them directly.

Thanks for the reminder to also look at the BPA CoP - I have been reading posts where some suggest there is a 10-20 minute grace period (10 minutes when coming into car park and 10 minutes before leaving) but now realise that this is for people that overstay, not those like us who haven't paid at all.

It looks like our situation falls within:

You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’
in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the
driver is on your land without permission you should still
allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave
before you take enforcement action.

But I'm not sure we will be able to make a claim on this basis, since my partner was on a call for awhile before going to read the sign and understanding the parking terms. However, 13 minutes still feels like a very short amount of time for such a big fine...

Redx

I am afraid the ten minute rule has been in place for council and private for some time , years , breaking site rules is like breaking fare rules on a bus or train , the default tariff applies and the signage tells you what that is , typically up to £100 (but can be less)

the invoice (not fine) is zero for the first tem minutes , then kicks in at the default tariff at 10.01 minutes, with a 40% reduction for early payment , been that way since 2012 or earlier, so is considered to be the "norm"

anyone who calls it a "fine" muddies the waters because the hire contracts will have fine and penalty in their clauses, but rarely do they say private parking charge notice , or invoice, so calling it a "fine" means people are more likely to lose money, basically they dont know what they are talking about because they use the legal word "fine" yet have no idea what it means in law

Beavis lost at £85 so no chance with a lesser figure, he lost 3 times to 11 judges

any appeal by the KEEPER (not driver) will be based on the following

NO LANDOWNER AUTHORITY
NO CONTRACT
POOR AND INADEQUATE SIGNAGE
POFA FAILURES
BPA CoP failures
anpr accuracy

and anything else we can think of

it wont be about what happened on the day, nor who was driving, nor what the driver did or didnt do

learn the different between them, and understand why a keeper appeals as hirer or as lessee, never as a driver, meaning the day to day keeper of the vehicle whilst their name is on the hire or lease agreement , never mentioning the word "fine"

person123

Thanks for the clarification. It looks like we don't really have a grounds for appeal other than if they fail to comply with the technicalities in the POFA.

I have read through Sch 4 of the POFA a few times and understand this requires (i) Zipcar as the hiring company to send to the invoice issuer certain information (e.g. the hirers details and the hire agreement etc) within 28 days of the PCN; and (ii) the issuer to send that information to us, along with other information within 21 days of their receipt of that information.

However, what happens if Zipcar has not provided this information to the issuer within the 28 day period (which has already lapsed). Does that mean those provisions won't apply and Zipcar remains liable and they can probably claim the amount from us under the Ts and Cs we signed with them?

Redx

ZIPCAR can name the hirer anytime they like until an MCOL is issued against them , which they should have done in a prompt and timely manner as per the BVRLA guidelines from some 4 or 5 years ago, never mind POFA which became law in october 2012

they should be complying with the laws of the land, not ignoring them , you as hirer had to comply with all the traffic laws etc, like speed limits , one way signs etc

we havent seen your T,S and C,S but I amagine Zipcar think they know the legal words but probably dont understand it all themselves , if they did they would have named the hirer and provided the hire docs as you said and absented themselves from the equation

yes its complicated , but the simple fact is they should have named the hirer , provided the docs (rarely happens) and then the hirer gets an NTH in their own name and address , then checks that NTH against POFA

IF IT FAILS POFA , ITS THEIR NUMBER ONE DEFENCE FOR ANY APPEAL AND ANY COURT CASE


read this saga


https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6031532/lex-autolease-has-invoiced-me-for-a-private-parking-notice-that-was-in-appeal-without-warning

person123

Thank you! We will just sit tight in the meantime and wait for the NTK addressed to us, hoping that Zipcar does the correct thing especially now that we have expressly told them to. Doesn't help that they take about 2 weeks to respond to any emails on this.

I've tried to find the Ts and Cs of our contract with Zipcar but haven't managed to locate them - although their Help section on their website talks about "tickets" rather than fines or penalties. It also doesn't help that they have been calling the parking charge notice a "penalty charge notice" in all their emails...

Redx

The time delay does help, because there are time constraints under POFA that help you as hirer when they fail them, I thought you understood this ?

It's not a penalty charge, meaning they don't understand the legal terms, which again does help you, the more they get wrong the better, so ensure you tell them that it is not a fine nor a penalty, it's an invoice

Maybe they use Americanism s due to being from there, so use incorrect terms

Email a SAR to the DPO at Zipcar and obtain all the documents and data about you and the vehicle, especially the hire or lease documents, so you can find out the t and c s, attaching proof of ID same as when you hired the vehicle