Initial Parking Fistral Beach - PCN - Confusion!!

Skippers

Hi all…

Hate to add another post on this however I (along with the many before me) have a very distinct issue with Initial Parking at Fistral Beach and am quite perplexed as to how to deal with it.

To echo all others in this predicament I’d like to thank all those who’ve put time and effort into all the information made available on this forum for appealing these utter parking sharks!
To date, since Thursday (25th July – not long I know) I’ve been scouring this site info from those in a similar position and found the NEWBIES post to be of great help!

Here are the circumstances which surround the PCN received:
1. For a weeks holiday in Cornwall I hired a VW van
2. On Thursday the 11th of July we visited Fistral Beach, Newquay
3. We parked on site and purchased a pay and display ticket for two hours
4. We left the beach to walk into town and purchased a further two hour ticket using the JustPark phone service
5. Returned to the car park and left with an hour to spare on the ticket paid for by phone
6. 25th July – the guy I hired the van from (the keeper) contacts me with details of PCN
7. Same day read through MSE forums and submitted the pro forma from the NEWBIES post via Initial Parking appeal site as this seemed to be the ‘one advice fits all’ for first appeal – not mentioning drivers details
8. Today (Sunday 27th July) received ‘rejected’ response via email from Initial Parking and of course a POPLA code

For additional info – it was a hot busy day at Fistral, it took us a number of minutes to park and then upon reviewing the signs at the pay and display machine, I went back to the van for some additional change, by which time there were a queue approx. 4 deep for the ticket machine – this included a man who appeared to not speak very good English struggling with the machine to the point that another guy who seemingly worked for either the council or something in the vicinity attempted to help the man. All adding time to our ‘grace period’. As a side note – of course I/we (my partner and I) are not the registered keeper, yet of course the PCN is our responsibility and would not for a second question that however we do not know if the keeper/driver argument is one to pursue with Initial Parking.
We are confused about how to go about this now, because the PCN received has the below details:

Contravention: Unpaid tariff time
Date and time of recorded contravention: 11th July, 2019 at 14:17:30

The photographic ‘evidence’ and details on the PCN they have provided captured the van arriving in the car park at 11:02:57 and leaving at 14:17:30

Essentially it is not clear exactly when the offence supposedly took place, ie the timings for which we supposedly were unpaid and we are simply assuming they are trying to make us cough up for the time between a) entering the car park, b) parking up and c) paying and displaying ie the ‘grace period’. Although this really isn’t clear as the contravention time states 14:17 and we have that covered with the phone ticket (we also have proof of this through confirmation text message). However as we did not foresee this issue coming up we did not keep the pay and display printed ticket (lesson learnt here)

I’m thinking our best chance is to dispute the following:
1. Grace Period
2. No evidence of period parked
3. Inability to show the individual they are pursuing is in fact the driver

Or should I attempt to ‘string’ out on the grounds that it is unclear of the exact contravention period? Should I attempt to question this first before going down the POPLA appeal route. Is this even a possibility?

Again, any help would be great 😊
Thanks

Redx

question EVERYTHING you can think of

not transferring liability from driver to keeper (hirer)

POFA failures including no hire docs

poor signage
no landowner authority
grace periods including time to park and also time to leave

tickets were purchased that more than cover the parking period

etc

Coupon-mad

we supposedly were unpaid and we are simply assuming they are trying to make us cough up for the time between a) entering the car park, b) parking up and c) paying and displaying ie the ‘grace period’.

Search the forum for POPLA split grace and copy what's already been done before. Saves us all sooo much typing and you some wasted drafts.

Fruitcake

I think sending an appeal as hirer/lessee would have been better but never mind, what's done is done, and at least the driver hasn't been identified.
There is nothing stopping you from telling the scammers now that you are the hirer since that person is also the day to day keeper as per the PoFA. You have already told them you are the keeper so it would be a common curtesy to tell them the other bit of information that you forgot to mention at the time.

For PoPLA, use all the points available to you from post 3 of the NEWBIES including the very long Inadequate Signage point.
Having told them you are also the vehicle hirer will cause them more problems as they will be required to send you a NTH.

Create your draft appeal and post it here before submitting it.

The_Slithy_Tove

At what time did you buy the first ticket?
At what time did you buy the top-up?

It wouldn't surprise me if their systems are rubbish, and just don't cope with a mixture of P&D and pay by phone for the same parking event.

Keep the pay & display ticket if you still have it, and get a screenshot of the pay-by-phone (or receipt or some other evidence). They'll refuse to accept any error, but if you have evidence, eventually you can kill this.

The_Deep

Explain it to a judge and surely he will throw the claim out. as nine times out of ten these tickets are scams. Also complain to your MP. If it does go to court ask the judge for unreasonable behaviour costs under CPR27.14(2)(g), you have behaves reasonably, they have not.

Both the judiciary and Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

Skippers

Thanks for the replies...

I'll get an appeal drafted and post it in here.

Interesting about the hirer/keeper point, didn't realise they would need to send an NTH. The P&D ticket was purchased at 11:18 and the phone ticket was at 13:18. Unfortunately we no longer have the P&D ticket, out of interest - since the P&D machine requires reg number, will this have registered on their system or is the reg entry on P&D simply for printing on the ticket?

Thanks again folks, massive help and starting to feel a bit more confident about this now!

The_Deep

The should be able to confirm registered ticket. Pay by phone seems to cause lots of problems.

Fruitcake

Send an SAR as per the NEWBIES. In that request as well as all other personal data they hold about you, tell them to include the P & D machine data and the pay by 'phone data specific to the vehicle VRN.

Definitely tell them this was a hire vehicle asap. Most parking scammers find it impossible to get the NTH and associated paperwork correct. You must do this before you do PoPLA so can include NTH failures in the appeal.

Tell the person you hired the vehicle from that you are dealing with this and since they are not liable, they must not pay the invoice and charge you for the privilege.

Do complain to your MP.

The_Slithy_Tove

Skippers wrote: »

Interesting about the hirer/keeper point, didn't realise they would need to send an NTH. The P&D ticket was purchased at 11:18 and the phone ticket was at 13:18. Unfortunately we no longer have the P&D ticket, out of interest - since the P&D machine requires reg number, will this have registered on their system or is the reg entry on P&D simply for printing on the ticket?

My guess, then, is that the charge was issued because of the 16 minute delay between you entering the car park and purchasing the ticket.
Do the signs say how long after arrival you must buy a ticket? Given that you paid enough to cover your whole parking time, they would be on shaky ground to pursue this (not that it ever stopped any of them).

Skippers

Hi again... So I have put together the below with the intention of sending this to Initial Parking via email (essentially to all email addresses listed on their website). Is this the way to go?

Dear Initial Parking,

Contravention Code:
Contravention:
Contravention date & time:
POPLA code:

With regard to the above detailed PCN, for which Initial Parking has rejected an appeal from the registered keeper. The registered keeper of the vehicle wishes to inform Initial Parking that during the time of the contravention listed above the vehicle was hired to another party (the hirer).

The registered keeper has contacted me (the aforementioned hirer of the vehicle) with details of the PCN and has advised that an appeal as the keeper has been rejected. As the hirer of the vehicle at the time of the contravention, I challenge this 'PCN' and subsequently request all future correspondence be sent directly to myself at the address listed below:

{insert my home address}

I am the vehicle's hirer and keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definitions under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) now it is proven that in this instance, the registered keeper is not the "keeper" (as defined under POFA), Civil Enforcement has no reason to contact {insert keepers name} again regarding this PCN

As the hirer of the vehicle I am indicating that there was a pay and display ticket for two hours purchased for the vehicle upon occupying a marked bay on the morning of 11th July made with a cash payment using the machine and then a further top up ticket of two hours purchased over the telephone system at 13:18 which adequately covers the time period of the vehicle being parked.

Considering a grace period is allowed as standard upon the vehicle entering the car park, parking in a marked bay and payment being made, it is therefore unclear exactly when the contravention has supposed to have occurred..

Initial Parking use ANPR cameras at the entrance to the car park to calculate parking times but do not allow for a grace period. The APRN camera recorded the vehicle entering the car park at 11:02 and exiting at 14:17.

Both tickets purchased totalling 4 hours of paid parking, not only do the tickets adequately cover the time the vehicle was parked in a marked bay (approx. 3hr 2mins) they also cover more than adequately the total time the vehicle was on site (approx. 3hrs 15mins), including what should be allowed as a grace period.

The period of time either side of the times the parking fee covers, which Initial Parking are claiming are ‘Unpaid Tariff Time’, was the time that the driver took to enter the busy car park, wait for a parking space to become available, to then read the parking conditions signs to consider whether to park or not, to consider which method to choose to pay to park - either to download the app required to pay the parking fee, call the number identified on the signs or pay for a printed pay & display ticket with cash. Then after parking, the 5 minutes it took for the car to leave the car park. This alleged 'Unpaid Tariff Time' should be considered 'grace periods’, as per the BPA Code of Practice clause 13. Again as mentioned earlier the tickets total 4 hours of parking as such should be considered to cover any such grace period.

Further to this, contrary to the BPA CoP clause 21, no signage at the entrance of the car park makes it clear to the driver that ANPR cameras are being used to record entry to the car park as evidence of the drivers intention to park on the land and there is no way of the company proving evidence of the exact times the car was actually parked in a parking space, only its entry and exit times and times of payments made.

Furthermore, I understand you do not own the car park and you have given me no information about your policy with the landowner or on site businesses, to cancel such a charge. So please supply that policy as required under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013.

In light of all above, I wish to make a subject access request pertaining to all details you hold of the vehicle. Details as follows:

Subject Access Request

- All details you hold of vehicle with registration {insert vehicle reg}.
- In particular details you hold with regard to the pay and display ticket purchased from the machine at Fistral Beach on the morning of July 11th 2019
- Also details for the ticket purchased via the telephone system for the same vehicle on the same day.

If you do not normally deal with these requests, please pass this letter to your DataProtection Officer, or relevant staff member. If you need advice on dealing with this request, the Information Commissioner’s Office can assist you. Its website is ico.org.uk or it can be contacted on 0303 123 1113.

With regard to the PCN, there will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either offer me a POPLA code as the hirer of the vehicle or cancel the charge in its entirety.

Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your response within the relevant timescales specified under the British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice.


I guess i'm unsure whether to send this straight to POPLA with the code they have already provided following the rejected appeal from the keeper... Or as outlined above, send to Initial Parking and see if they will send NTH and go from there...

Thanks