Loft has no building regs. How do we proceed?

BLC1983

Hi all,

We are in the process of buying a house that was built in the late 1880's and it has a loft conversion. The sellers are saying it was done before they moved in, over 10 years ago. Our solicitor has asked them to apply for regularisation but the sellers have said they can't do this as the conversion was done in 1983 and the council won't come out to look at a property if the work was done before 1985.

Our solicitor went back to them a few times asking for documentation for the conversion, and now the sellers are now saying they won't reply any more to questions regarding the loft conversion etc...

I really don't know what to do. We have checked online for planning permission or building regs at the address and there aren't any. I don't understand why the seller is giving a specific date of 1983 yet hasn't shown any proof how they know this?

Our conveyancer is even having to get clarification on this matter from his boss because he isn't sure where we go from here as their company are quite strict on getting documents for such as building regs.

Any advice would be helpful as I have a feeling this house sale may fall through

Thanks

davidmcn

36 year old alterations are ancient history, I start to lose interest at 20 years, and the council certainly aren't going to enforce anything done that long ago. So unless the sellers are lying/mistaken and it's much more recent than that, I wouldn't get overly excited about the consents.

Did your surveyor have any comment to make about it other than checking for paperwork? Any structural problems etc ought to have come to light by now.

BLC1983

The surveyor just said that the floor had been thickened but is unsure if it meets building regs.

I have got my head round the fact that it has stood the test of time however I just can't understand why they are not saying how they know it was done in 1983?

They haven't been asked this question directly yet but hopefully our conveyancer will ask it and they will answer honestly or provide proof of this date.

I got to hear about the date 1983 because the seller text me this directly (we have been in contact regarding a few other things) but he didn't say how he's come up with this.

BLC1983

The reason I suppose we need proof of the date is because if they are lying and the conversion was done after 1985 then regularisation can be applied and we can get that all important paperwork to show to buyers in the future, should we come to sell.

Surrey_EA

I am prepared to be proved wrong, but I can't see a great deal of difference if you suddenly discover the work was actually done in 1986 or 1987.

As David says, the council aren't going to start enforcing anything from that long ago.

Even if it did comply with regulations in place at the time it won't comply with current regs.

davidmcn

BLC1983 wrote: »

The reason I suppose we need proof of the date is because if they are lying and the conversion was done after 1985 then regularisation can be applied and we can get that all important paperwork to show to buyers in the future, should we come to sell.

Like I said, even if it was slightly more recent than 1983 I'm not convinced it would be worth bothering with (and I'm not sure how the council would retrospectively certify it as complying with 1980s-era building regulations).

Doozergirl

BLC1983 wrote: »

The reason I suppose we need proof of the date is because if they are lying and the conversion was done after 1985 then regularisation can be applied and we can get that all important paperwork to show to buyers in the future, should we come to sell.

There's going to be some indication of the age, even if it's just the style of things used up there and the ageing of it. I've been in someone's house this morning saying 'early 80's' to their doors and got the reply of "1977, because that's the date on the newspapers we found stuffing the walls" . Good enough guess.

If it's before the Building Act of 1984 then I think you already know now that there were no national building regulations applicable and therefore paperwork isn't required for anybody's solicitor. The simple answer is that the conversion pre-dates the Building Regulations and then no-one needs any paperwork, no more questions asked. You're not supposed to ask the council anyway.

If there's no proof, there's no way of inventing it. And there's no chance of enforcement, so what's the point in chasing for it? No one's asking for you for the certificate for the original house build, are they?!

I'd be pretty surprised if your vendors know about the 1984 thing. Not many people do.

The main point here is that we know that anything from the mid 80s, even with a certificate, is going to be far inferior to anything built now, so there really is no point chasing for it. You need to satisfy yourself that it is safe for you to live in and maybe think about any upgrades - to the insulation in the loft particularly - go in there when we get this heatwave and see what it's like! :eek:

Also, fire safety. Upgrading your smoke alarms to be hardwired if they aren't already and installing something like Nest Protect through the house, as they're amazing. Ask building control to sign off your new insulation etc and you're starting to build legitimacy for the conversion retrospectively anyway.

LawAbiding

Just to put things into perspective.

I did my own loft conversion with no planning or building regs.

Building regs came round 2 years later for something else and insisted on inspecting the whole house, when it came to the loft, they just asked for new fire alarms to be fitted throughout, wired in.

They didn't bring up any issues!

The question now remains, are you that bothered if no consent was made? if not, just go ahead...

BLC1983

I don't know how to reply to people individually on here but thanks for your replies everyone!

What you have all said has made so much sense and maybe I have been over thinking things. If the council aren't now going to come round asking questions why would I be bothered about the building regs consent? As long as the loft has been done to a good standard then that's more important to us!

And come to think about it now the sellers had the whole roof re slated in 2016 and they did get building regs sign off for that part so the council must have come round to sign that off and ignored the rest of the conversion!

Doozergirl - it's hard to say how old it looks because the roof has been re-done and because of this they obviously put in new insulation and new plasterboard and replaced the velux skylights. The only thing I think is now old is the floor but that is covered in carpet. But it does feel absolutely solid and doesn't creak. Also the ceilings in the bedrooms below have no cracks or the ceilings aren't sagging.

I think my conveyancer worried us more because he seemed quite concerned. He's told us that the company he works for are very strict on getting certificates, therefore without proof that the loft conversion was done before 1985 he isn't sure how to proceed? I really hope this doesn't cause any problems as we do want to proceed now.

And in regards to the seller saying that the conversion was done in 1983, which is quite specific it would be good to know how he knows that because it may save us a lot of hastle in the future.

Doozergirl

BLC1983 wrote: »

I think my conveyancer worried us more because he seemed quite concerned. He's told us that the company he works for are very strict on getting certificates, therefore without proof that the loft conversion was done before 1985 he isn't sure how to proceed? I really hope this doesn't cause any problems as we do want to proceed now.

How does anyone prove a negative?

Is he a trainee or something?

The way of buying your way out and making it go away is to buy an indemnity policy, but it isn't needed. The answer is that the conversion pre-dates the Building Regulations, as does the house. No certificate is needed for the house, no certificate is needed for the work. There is no proof, but no proof was ever required as Building Control didn't exist. The fact that Building Control have signed off the roof adds weight to that.

The solicitor has to take the vendor's word on many more things than just this. They should take it on this.

davidmcn

BLC1983 wrote: »

I think my conveyancer worried us more because he seemed quite concerned. He's told us that the company he works for are very strict on getting certificates, therefore without proof that the loft conversion was done before 1985 he isn't sure how to proceed?

I would be concerned that your conveyancer doesn't know how to deal with such an utterly commonplace issue - but at least he seems to be escalating it to someone who might have a clue.