Missing deeds

AdrianC

michael8626 wrote: »

As far as I am aware, it was a first registration in 2005, inherited the property.

Would/should the conveyancing solicitor at the time have sent in the deeds?

If they were available, yes.
If not, then they couldn't. So the registration would have been done on weaker grounds, with whatever evidence was available.

The Land Registry have nothing on file to view, they said on the phone yesterday ‘as it was transfer of title we probably just did it off an ordnance survey map’ exact phrase used.

Now if deeds have appeared, where do I stand please?

Well, officially, what your neighbour owns is what the LR have him as owning. If he has paperwork to show he owns something else, he's got to convince them first.

michael8626

AdrianC wrote: »

If they were available, yes.
If not, then they couldn't. So the registration would have been done on weaker grounds, with whatever evidence was available.


Well, officially, what your neighbour owns is what the LR have him as owning. If he has paperwork to show he owns something else, he's got to convince them first.

Thank you Adrian. Final two questions -

Have you ever known Land Registry to make a change to a boundary after this amount of time?

If I was indeed to lose land, after the Land Registry mapped my land from my deeds, never scanned a copy and now they are lost, could I seek compensation for my loss from LR?

AdrianC

michael8626 wrote: »

Thank you Adrian. Final two questions -

Have you ever known Land Registry to make a change to a boundary after this amount of time?

I have no personal experience either way, but it's entirely feasible if his evidence is compelling.

I'm really not sure some deeds that have come to light after a decade and a half are going to be compelling, because it's entirely possible some of the land was sold in the period before registration.

If I was indeed to lose land, after the Land Registry mapped my land from my deeds, never scanned a copy and now they are lost, could I seek compensation for my loss from LR?

Nope. They got all the info they needed, returned them to the solicitor, who kept them safe for another six years. There's no proof that the solicitor didn't - as they say - send them on to you a decade and a bit ago.

Mojisola

michael8626 wrote: »

Have you ever known Land Registry to make a change to a boundary after this amount of time?

If I was indeed to lose land, after the Land Registry mapped my land from my deeds, never scanned a copy and now they are lost, could I seek compensation for my loss from LR?

Everyone knows boundaries can change over time - what was on the map from years ago may not show where the boundary is now.

michael8626

Mojisola wrote: »

Everyone knows boundaries can change over time - what was on the map from years ago may not show where the boundary is now.

I hope that’s the case

babyblade41

Is this a huge amount of land that is in question... I'd keep things very amiable at present as boundary problems can cost and go on forever .

It will be him who needs to prove to LR that the plan is incorrect which on my understanding will be pretty hard as it was registered correctly in his eyes in 2005 or am I muddled ?

michael8626

babyblade41 wrote: »

Is this a huge amount of land that is in question... I'd keep things very amiable at present as boundary problems can cost and go on forever .

It will be him who needs to prove to LR that the plan is incorrect which on my understanding will be pretty hard as it was registered correctly in his eyes in 2005 or am I muddled ?

About 7 x 50 x 2 metres wedge shape. You are not muddled.

One other thing, In 2015 I did erect a post and rail fence on the line where he now thinks the new boundary should be. This was done temporarily at short notice as I was letting my property and wanted a marker so my tenants didn’t go on his land.
I did tell him what I was doing at the time, (as that boundary is actually his responsibility) he agreed to a fence at the time, but exact boundaries were not discussed.

babyblade41

I would ask the LR agent on here for some advice , they are excellent at responding quickly.

Having gone through an adverse possession recently (I know this is different) but the evidence needed to register is pretty much the same with maybe different time scales for notices , when he registered in 2005 he accepted that to LR that what was on the ground is what OS has on paper.

I'm not sure how now he has found evidence to the contrary and how much credence it would have, but I'm not sure how LR would see this.

I would ask the agent here and see what they say before engaging in neighbour .

Dave_606

michael8626 wrote: »

About 7 x 50 x 2 metres wedge shape. You are not muddled.

One other thing, In 2015 I did erect a post and rail fence on the line where he now thinks the new boundary should be. This was done temporarily at short notice as I was letting my property and wanted a marker so my tenants didn’t go on his land.
I did tell him what I was doing at the time, (as that boundary is actually his responsibility) he agreed to a fence at the time, but exact boundaries were not discussed.

???, So this boundary nobody knew of in 2015 is being claimed by your neighbour to be exactly along the entire line where you randomly erected a temporary fence in 2015?. That's 1 hell of a coincidence that in that this info he's found has suddenly turned up to confirm a random fence placement 4 years ago is on a boundary he's now saying was always his?.

I'd certainly be asking for a copy of this and get it verified as something sounds very fishy about an established document claiming a boundary exactly where a temporary fence was erected inside land your under the impression was yours.

Land_Registry

First thing to point out is that the registered extent won't be changed without an actual application being submitted along with supporting evidence.

Second thing is that the consent of each registered owner and probably any mortgage lender would be required as well.

The third thing is that there's a lot of information here and the advice we appear to have given is not what I would have expected. But that often depends on what is asked and what details are shared/available. So I'll try and pick off what I can in general terms as I don't have any specifics.

Two properties first registered in 2000 and 2005 - we don't map a title based solely on the OS detail. We use the OS detail as a base map but would rely on the deeds lodged with any application to then decide on the registered extent.
If there was any uncertainty we might do a site visit to see for our own eyes.
Clearly where you have an already registered title 'fitting' the next one may be easy on paper but the same criteria apply, namely Deeds have to show title and if everything matches then great.
But remember no deed plan and no title plan will show you the exact legal boundary and the latter shows the general boundaries only (Yes some titles can have a Determined Boundary with strict measurements but they remain very rare indeed)

We are not a deeds repository so as others have mentioned we don't retain copies if all the deeds. We register a title for the first time based on the deeds and return them to the applicant.

Where a deed includes details such as rights, covenants, provisions etc that need to appear on the register then we may retain a copy on file - hence some entries will say 'copy filed'. But we may also set out the key extracts on the register and no copy is kept.

The old deeds will very rarely solve such issues though unless of course you both read them and agree on what they tell you.

Interestingly you refer to a building plot now and a previously marked but presumably open boundary. So no fence, wall or hedge say. As such there's always the possibility if some uncertainty as to where the boundary line is but if nothing has ever physically fixed the whole boundary in place uncertainty will always exist, especially where one party wants it to.

7x50x2 is a big chunk of land. Your title plans woukd be your first port if call so it might be prudent to get a surveyor to interpret them and the land and report on where they think the boundary line is.

However if you aren't go to agree or accept that or don't want that then the sole arbiter woukd be a court of law. And in my experience judges look very dimly on such matters coming before them as it should be something neighbour's resolve between themselves.

So no one piece of information is going to trump another BUT the starting point is now your 19 and 14 year old title plans. They are your state guaranteed general boundaries.

You want to build so I assume where you want to build up to is key re this boundary.
The neighbour, for whatever reason(s), believes the boundary is in another place but that appears to mean you are on a big chunk of their land if so.
So next steps would be to try and discuss it further and agree where the boundary lies and fix it.
If that's unlikely then get some legal advice as to what your and their options are as in my experience such things can be a bit like a tennis match and very to and fro until someone decides not to hit the ball back.