Is notice given during assured term valid when tenancy becomes periodic?

saajan_12

max50 wrote: »

Hi,

I have searched online, but have failed to find a definitive answer to the following.

We have been renting our current house for about 26 months. The last years contract ended in May, so we are now in a periodic tenancy.- okay, CPT or SPT? Does the last contract state anything about what happens when it becomes periodic?

In January this year, the landlord spoke with us to advise that he was thinking of selling the house later in the year. We advised that as school finished in July, we would ideally not want to move out before the end of July, or even maybe the end of August, so asked whether that would be possible.

The landlord suggested 28th July and asked whether we wanted to move out then, or if 28th August would be better. I email the landlord back to confirm that the 28th July would be fine for us to move out, wishing him well with any sale. - please quote the wording. This doesn't sound like notice either way, but it does sound like a mutual early termination agreed. I.e. a new agreement to terminate on 28th July. However this depends on how 'firm' wording was.

Fast forward a number of months, it wasn't looking like the house would sell (landlord had tried unsuccessfully in the past). However, fairly recently, some people came to view the house, liked it, and the sale was agreed. Contracts should have now been exchanged. - are you sure? It doesn't directly affect your tenancy but if they had been exchanged then the LL would have a sale date set in stone, meaning they would be very motivated to get you out (and possibly can offer you an incentive)

On 16th June, our landlord emailed us and attached a notice to quit letter, asking us to move out on 29th July. The document also mentions that only at least 4 weeks notice is required. - what was this titled? For ASTs of residential properties in England, it shouldn't be a NTQ, 4 weeks is insufficient and usually has to be on paper not email so this is likely irrelevant and invalid. 16-29Jul is not even 2 weeks so not sure what they're thinking.

As far as I understand things, 2 months notice is now required from the landlord, and the move out day doesn't now need to be on the end of month date, as specified in the original contract, so can just be 2 months from the serving of o. - correct We received the same letter by post a number of days later. - still invalid due to being the wrong form and insufficient time.

We obviously don't want to inconvenience the landlord or new owners, and had hoped to have found somewhere to rent by 28th July. However, this has not been possible unfortunately. I'm intending to speak with the landlord, as he's a reasonable guy, but just wanted to also be sure of where we stand legally.

1) Does the email I replied to the landlord in January (many months ago) saying July 28th was 'fine' count as valid notice, even though it was during the fixed term period, and the move out date was a couple of months after the end of that term, so during the period tenancy period? meaning we have to move out 28th July? - Its not valid notice, and even if it was, you wouldn't have to move out on that basis until the court granted a possession order etc. However it MAY be a valid mutual termination agreement. Please quote.
2) Is what I mentioned above correct, in that the landlord must give us 2 months notice, rather than the 4 weeks mentioned in his document. If so, if he emailed us on 16th June, does that 'officially' give us until 16th August to move out? - No, it has to state the correct date.
3) If our agreement given in January isn't valid, and the landlord's notice emailed to us on June 16th isn't valid because it mentions 29th July (not 2 months). Would he then legally need to send us a new notice due to the 29th July date being incorrect, or is this notice still valid as 2 months from the date we received? - If the agreement in Jan wasn't a firm mutual termination, then they would need to serve notice again.

As mentioned, we don't want to inconvenience anyone, and will do all we can to find somewhere as quickly as possible. Having 3 young children, the uncertainty is of course even more worrying.

Thanks,

It sounds like you both agreed on a mutual early termination in Jan to leave 28th July. However please quote the wording to be sure.

Everything after that has been invalid, so if my expectations on the early term don't hold true then the LL would need to serve correct notice giving 2 calendar months after service, then the court grants a possession order, then bailiffs etc.. All in 4-8 months however you would be footing the bill for the courts and bailiffs. If you want to move before then, you'd need to serve your own notice giving 1 tenancy period notice (or whatever it says on your agreement if on CPT), which could mean ~7-8weeks more rent if you find somewhere else soon after paying rent.

So if you'd rather move in the holidays anyway, you're better off looking now and either stick to 28th July or negotiate a later mutual termination, so you avoid overlap.

G_M

max50 wrote: »

As a new user, I'm not able to upload an edited version of the notice to quit that we received. It has our name and address, landlord's name and address. date of notice and date of possession, along with some advisory notes, ....

compare it to the genuine Form 6a I linked for you in post 9 above.

max50

saajan_12 wrote: »

It sounds like you both agreed on a mutual early termination in Jan to leave 28th July. However please quote the wording to be sure.

Here is January's conversation on email:

Landlord (09/01): Your contract ends 28th April. You wish to extend with rolling contract. I am suggesting to 28th July... Could be 28th August if you wish. I have asked (letting agent) to put the property on the market. I asked you if I could pass on your contact numbers so they could deal with you direct regarding possible viewings. You agreed.

Myself (09/01): No worries. I'll check with (Wife's name) about July/August and come back to you if that's OK

Myself (09/01): July 28th will be fine. Hopefully we can get into a new place and enjoy some of the summer then. Hope the house sale goes well.

I emailed the landlord yesterday to advise of the possibility that we may not have found a place by the end of July, despite our best attempts. He didn't receive the news well unfortunately, and I can understand his disappointment.

However, his reply was not only offensive, but also quite threatening. He mentioned that we have had since January to find a place, which is true. However, we didn't know for certain the house would be sold until fairly recently (not an excuse), and also rental properties don't come on the market until they are nearly available, so within the last month or two. It's a very unfortunate situation for all parties, but we didn't deliberate cause the situation in my opinion.

He advised that he had sent a legally binding 'Notice to Quit' letting, and we needed to move out by the date stated on there. He followed up in the email to advise the situation was of our own making, and also that my priority seemed to be having a family holiday, rather than put a roof over my family's head, both of which I found very offensive. Regarding the holiday, this was originally booked by someone in the wider family towards the end of last year, at which point there had been no discussions regarding moving house. He goes on to say there will be reprecussions if we don't move out on the agreed date, and which he says would make it make it difficult for us to get a mortgage or rent somewhere else.

However, in the next sentence he says that he will 'give us some extra time', up until August 28th, while mentioning that this doesn't mean it's our move out date and he expects us to move out well before that. Full rent must be paid on our normal payment day, and he expect to be kept fully informed of our progress.

I have replied to the landlord in a nice way, but also politely advising that the notice to quit notice is not valid due to the 2 month notice period not being given. His offer of extra time is confusing, as while he says that 28th August isn't our move out date, the previous sentence says there will be reprecussions if we don't move out by the agreed date.

I have asked for clarification on this, to understand if he is saying that the new agreed move out date is now actually the 28th August, but he would ideally like us to move out before then.

We full intend to move out ASAP, and this needs to be by the last week in August at the absolute latest due to schools and needing to be settled, so have no intention whatsoever to stay (because we potentially can), causing problems for anyone, but rather just to find somewher suitable quickly. End of July is still the hope.

[Deleted User]

I'd suggest getting some face to face advice near to you. Look at shelter if they have a drop in or on your council web site.

Ignore the landlord for now and don't let him spook you. If his notice is invalid, which it is if he didn't give you 2 months, then he's got a lot to learn.
Do you know if your deposit was protected?

G_M

max50 wrote: »

Here is January's conversation on email:
The email exchange could arguably be the basis of an agreed Surrender date as saajan suggested above. However since the agent does no apear to be relying on this, you should ignore it.

.....
However, his reply was not only offensive, but also quite threatening. He mentioned that we have had since January to find a place, which is true. However, we didn't know for certain the house would be sold until fairly recently (not an excuse), and also rental properties don't come on the market until they are nearly available, so within the last month or two. It's a very unfortunate situation for all parties, but we didn't deliberate cause the situation in my opinion. all irrelevant. Ignore.

He advised that he had sent a legally binding 'Notice to Quit' letting, and we needed to move out by the date stated on there.
As has ben explained, this is not true so you should ignore. Do NOT respond to this.

He followed up in the email to advise the situation was of our own making, and also that my priority seemed to be having a family holiday, rather than put a roof over my family's head, both of which I found very offensive. Regarding the holiday, this was originally booked by someone in the wider family towards the end of last year, at which point there had been no discussions regarding moving house.
all irrelevant.Ignore

He goes on to say there will be reprecussions if we don't move out on the agreed date,
Yes.Repersussions for him when it transpires he has not served a valid S21 and his client, the landlord, is stuck with you!

and which he says would make it make it difficult for us to get a mortgage or rent somewhere else.
Rubbish. There is no way he can influence your mortgage applications except
1) if the landlord sued you in court (for money, not just to evict) and the court ordered you to pay him, and then you still did not pay. Only then would it appear on your credit record
2) the LL/agent could give you a poor reference for your next landlord, or refuse to give a reference

However, in the next sentence he says that he will 'give us some extra time', up until August 28th, while mentioning that this doesn't mean it's our move out date and he expects us to move out well before that. Full rent must be paid on our normal payment day, and he expect to be kept fully informed of our progress.
Ignore.

Pay rent as usual.

Serve your proper notice yourself when you are ready tomove out (or discus and agree a new Surrender date in writing).


I have replied to the landlord in a nice way, but also politely advising that the notice to quit notice is not valid due to the 2 month notice period not being given.

:eek::eek::eek:
WHY? Oh No! Have you sent this? If not, Don't!

His offer of extra time is confusing, as while he says that 28th August isn't our move out date, the previous sentence says there will be reprecussions if we don't move out by the agreed date.

I have asked for clarification on this, to understand if he is saying that the new agreed move out date is now actually the 28th August, but he would ideally like us to move out before then.
You really should stop communicating with him. All you are doing is

a) helping him by telling him where he's gone wrong and
b) maintaining a pointless ongoing exchange of claims, counter-claims, insults, threats, suggestions etc which will be never-ending and serve no useful purpose.

We full intend to move out ASAP, and this needs to be by the last week in August at the absolute latest due to schools and needing to be settled, so have no intention whatsoever to stay (because we potentially can), causing problems for anyone, but rather just to find somewher suitable quickly. End of July is still the hope.

Rely on the law.
You know your rights.
If /when he tries to evict you, he'll fail, so just wait till that happens.
Ignore the threats. Pointless o get wound upby them, and counter-productive to respond.

max50

G_M wrote: »

Rely on the law.
You know your rights.
If /when he tries to evict you, he'll fail, so just wait till that happens.
Ignore the threats. Pointless o get wound upby them, and counter-productive to respond.

Thanks for the info - much appreciated.

Just to clarify, it's the landlord I have been in commucation with, rather than an agent.

As you say, when it comes to law and a potential court case, less is often more (sent a fairly quick reply without having this in mind at the time), not making them aware of any mistakes, and in this case it looks like he would have submitted an invalid court claim based on an incorrect S21, unless his solicitor picked up on it.

We have got on well with the landlord until this point, so it's a bit disappointing he cannot be a bit more understanding. I emailed the landlord firstly to explain about a possible delay to moving out and then today with the above, in response to his reply, with the letting agent in copy. I don't intend for there to be any more back and forward, so will of course cease communication. As difficult as the situation is, even with his threatening email, I didn't want the landlord to put in an invalid court claim, or him to lose money, or for us to delay him unnecessarily because we can.

It's good to know our rights though of course, and this gives peace of mind, should he escalate things further, although I'm fairly sure we'll be out of here before then. The landlord may provide us with another Notice to Quit, who knows.. but we will do as suggested and submit our own notice as soon as we have a place lined up.

Smodlet

max50, please, for your own and your family's sake, stop being such a doormat. The hell with your LL! What is he to you but someone whose mortgage you are paying when you could be paying off your own? Time to pull on the big pants, don't you think?

Just listen to your uncle (so not in a creepy way) G_M. He knows whereof he speaks, being a LL himself.

You can do this.

timeism0ney

We've just been through this recently. Moving with kids is not easy and often can't be done in 2 months timeframe so hearing that you 'must' do this is such a mindf*ckery. Listen to all the advice here and stop feeling like you have to be nice to your landlord. Try not to stress until you get a proper notice, and then a court order. Anything before that isn't worth responding to. Put your kids first - you have to.

saajan_12

max50 wrote: »

Landlord (09/01): Your contract ends 28th April. You wish to extend with rolling contract. I am suggesting to 28th July... Could be 28th August if you wish. I have asked (letting agent) to put the property on the market. I asked you if I could pass on your contact numbers so they could deal with you direct regarding possible viewings. You agreed.

Myself (09/01): No worries. I'll check with (Wife's name) about July/August and come back to you if that's OK

Myself (09/01): July 28th will be fine. Hopefully we can get into a new place and enjoy some of the summer then. Hope the house sale goes well.

So this is the only possible argument they have. Its debatable what a judge would rule IF you don't move out by 28 Jul and IF they argued that as the basis for a possession order or damages for resulting losses.

Everything else about having already served notice, or who is going on holiday is irrelevant. Don't keep going in circles about that. As you said rental properties don't come up ages before they're availabile, so getting months and months isn't really relevant to you. Just focus on getting a new place, and once you've found one then negotiate an early surrender with the LL or serve notice in line with your periodic tenancy terms.
Anything else wiht only make things worse.