Is notice given during assured term valid when tenancy becomes periodic?

max50

Hi,

I have searched online, but have failed to find a definitive answer to the following.

We have been renting our current house for about 26 months. The last years contract ended in May, so we are now in a periodic tenancy.

In January this year, the landlord spoke with us to advise that he was thinking of selling the house later in the year. We advised that as school finished in July, we would ideally not want to move out before the end of July, or even maybe the end of August, so asked whether that would be possible.

The landlord suggested 28th July and asked whether we wanted to move out then, or if 28th August would be better. I email the landlord back to confirm that the 28th July would be fine for us to move out, wishing him well with any sale.

Fast forward a number of months, it wasn't looking like the house would sell (landlord had tried unsuccessfully in the past). However, fairly recently, some people came to view the house, liked it, and the sale was agreed. Contracts should have now been exchanged.

On 16th June, our landlord emailed us and attached a notice to quit letter, asking us to move out on 29th July. The document also mentions that only at least 4 weeks notice is required.

As far as I understand things, 2 months notice is now required from the landlord, and the move out day doesn't now need to be on the end of month date, as specified in the original contract, so can just be 2 months from the serving of o. We received the same letter by post a number of days later.

We obviously don't want to inconvenience the landlord or new owners, and had hoped to have found somewhere to rent by 28th July. However, this has not been possible unfortunately. I'm intending to speak with the landlord, as he's a reasonable guy, but just wanted to also be sure of where we stand legally.

1) Does the email I replied to the landlord in January (many months ago) saying July 28th was 'fine' count as valid notice, even though it was during the fixed term period, and the move out date was a couple of months after the end of that term, so during the period tenancy period? meaning we have to move out 28th July?
2) Is what I mentioned above correct, in that the landlord must give us 2 months notice, rather than the 4 weeks mentioned in his document. If so, if he emailed us on 16th June, does that 'officially' give us until 16th August to move out?
3) If our agreement given in January isn't valid, and the landlord's notice emailed to us on June 16th isn't valid because it mentions 29th July (not 2 months). Would he then legally need to send us a new notice due to the 29th July date being incorrect, or is this notice still valid as 2 months from the date we received?

As mentioned, we don't want to inconvenience anyone, and will do all we can to find somewhere as quickly as possible. Having 3 young children, the uncertainty is of course even more worrying.

Thanks,

[Deleted User]

No an email is not valid notice. He must issue a valid notice giving you 2 months.

max50

We have communicated a number of times via email in the past. He also attached a scanned copy of the notice to quit letter, although as it mentions a 4 week period, this looks to be invalid for this reason alone anyway -

"Notice to quit a premises let as a dwelling must be given at least 4 weeks before it takes effect"

.. and does my reply to his email back in January count as me giving legal notice to quit on 28th July, meaning we would have to move out then anyway?

Smodlet

Hi max50 and sorry for your situation. I will try to find the relevant links but you really need to read the sticky threads at the top of this board written by G_M, a landlord, illustrating exactly what tenants' rights are and what landlords must do to get them to leave.

As _shel has said, your LL must give you notice which covers 2 whole rental periods i.e. at least 2 months as I understand it. It is all in there. The really important point is that the notice must be valid: It must be on the right form, usually a form 6a. There is another thread on here from a novice LL who tried to give notice just by writing a letter and has been told categorically that this will not suffice.

As for leaving your home, you do not have to even if your LL does serve notice in the correct manner; only a tenant or a court order can end a tenancy; a LL cannot. You may well not wish to inconvenience him but surely his convenience is less important to you than keeping a roof over your family's heads?

HTH and good luck.

ETA: Here is the relevant bit from G_M's guide but there is loads of useful information in the rest of it as well.

theartfullodger

Which country are you in, please? England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales?

Landlord selling does not end tenancy nor compel you to leave. Ignore his communications, do not tell him notice is invalid - that will just get you evicted quicker.

LL might be willing to pay you to leave:. I'd want £10k+ but I'm a greedy Landlord

max50

Thanks Smodlet. Yeah, from reading through the info there the S21 sent to us is invalid due to incorrect moving out date given on there, as not a minimum of 2 full months away.

Having a roof over our heads is definitely the highest priority.

What are your thoughts on an email reply I gave to our landlord back in January, where he suggested July 28th as a moving out date, and I agreed as being 'fine'.

Wouldn't this count as the tenant giving notice?

As you mentioned, ultimately, only a court order or ourselves leaving the property ends a tenancy, so we could still potentially stay slightly longer until we find somewhere.

If I had given notice back in January though, we would effectively be in the wrong to stay past the agreed date, and would lose in court if it came to that, so we're hoping that is not the situation and my informal acceptance by email then would not count as giving notice.

max50

theartfullodger wrote: »

Which country are you in, please? England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales?

Hey theartfullodger,

We're in England.

Smodlet

max50, I am no LL; my lack of knowledge is really showing, not for the first time, today :( as I forgot to ask the obvious first question now covered by theartfullodger (who rocks, btw) However, since you are in England, the info I provided is valid. What you choose to do with it is up to you; you can be co-operative or you can do as theartfullodger advises. It all depends how charitably you feel towards your LL.

I hope he protected your deposit as he should have done. As for your email accepting 28th July, I don't know but imagine it would be inadmissable since your LL has, to date, failed to issue a valid Section 21 notice.

Over to you, artful (et al)

G_M

Your tenancy started 26 months ago, around May 2018?

Consequently the LLmust serve you with a S21 notice using Form 6a. Did he?

The Form 6a must give an exiry date of 2 calender months and meet various other validity tests. see
S21 checklist (Is a S21 valid?)


If you as a tenant served notice during the fixed term of a contract, this would not bind you in a subsequent periodic tenancy (you cannot serve notice to end a tenancy that has not yet been created). Were you in a fixed term back in January?

Have you read:


* Ending/renewing an AST: what happens when a fixed term ends? How can a LL or tenant end a tenancy? What is a periodic tenancy?

Smodlet

I did that bit, G_M, I did.

max50

G_M wrote: »

Your tenancy started 26 months ago, around May 2018?

May 2017

G_M wrote: »

Have you read:
* Ending/renewing an AST: what happens when a fixed term ends? How can a LL or tenant end a tenancy? What is a periodic tenancy?

Yes, I read through everything in that thread, thanks. It was because of the following text there that I commented about the S21 being invalid due to dates being incorrect.

"A S21 is invalid if:
a) served before deposit is registered & the deposit's Prescribed Information given to the tenant
b) incorrect dates/notice period"

The information in that thread confirmed the research I had done on how a landlord or tenant could end a tenancy, while adding more. It was particularly helpful to understand what makes a S21 invalid.

G_M wrote: »

If you as a tenant served notice during the fixed term of a contract, this would not bind you in a subsequent periodic tenancy (you cannot serve notice to end a tenancy that has not yet been created). Were you in a fixed term back in January?

This is good to know, thanks. Yes, we were still in a fixed term back in January, until May this year.

As a new user, I'm not able to upload an edited version of the notice to quit that we received. It has our name and address, landlord's name and address. date of notice and date of possession, along with some advisory notes, but yeah, possession date is incorrect anyway. The notes on the form mention only 4 weeks notice being required, so I guess that's why he has thought it was compliant. It seems to have been download from the NLA.

On the day on which a complete period of your tenancy expires next after the end of four weeks from the date of service of this notice.