JSA closed claim date dispute

dag_2

I'm hoping someone can help.

I was getting Jobseekers Allowance up to August. Lucky me, I have relatives who arranged to take me away on a package holiday.

Not so luckily, the date that I flew out happened to be my signing day. So I handed in the tear-off form from my ES40 booklet on the previous signing day two weeks earlier, giving my signing-off date as the day before I flew.

Once I returned, I discovered that, my claim had been closed down on the basis that I failed to attend signing, as though I never handed the ES40 tear-off form in. As a result, I've lost out on 13 days' worth of JSA.

No-one wants to take responsibility for the decision to close my claim. If I speak to my local Jobcentre, they say there's nothing they can do. They don't try to justify the decision, they just simply say they're not authorised to reverse it, and that I have to speak to the Stratford service centre. But the Stratford service centre say that the decision about what dates claims should cease is made by the local Jobcentre, and not by them, and that there's therefore nothing they can do unless I can get my local Jobcentre to concede that they've got their dates wrong.

However, someone at the Stratford service centre did suggest that I put in an appeal, which I am now in the process of preparing evidence for.

Unfortunately, I don't have a receipt for the form (I think it's going to have to be photocopies and registered post every time in the future). But fortunately, the person who I handed the form to at the local Jobcentre actually remembers the fact that I handed it in! And they remember checking over the details in the form too. Despite the fact that it's now over two months ago. Perhaps that's not so surprising, though, after all I guess it's not often that JSA claimants talk about their holiday sunshine plans in the dole office.

But the holiday was paid for by relatives. I still don't have money of my own, and I can't really afford to lose out on that 13 days I'm entitled to.

Has anyone else had ES40 tear-off form date disputes? Does anyone have any advice on how to handle it, and how to maximise my chances of winning the appeal? Better yet, is anyone aware of a procedure for resolving this sort of problem without having to go to an independent tribunal at all?

Thanks.

dmg24

You normally have to appeal within 30 days of the decision. It is now November. Is there a reason for the delay?

healy

An appeal can take number of months to be heard by a tribunal. It would probably be a good idea to get advice from the CAB with regards to the appeal. There is someone who posts here sometimes who is an expert on this so hopefully he will see the post.

dag_2

You normally have to appeal within 30 days of the decision. It is now November. Is there a reason for the delay?

There's no delay on my part. I've already got their schedule of evidence (honestly, it's full of red herrings) and I've sent off the form to say that I want to continue the appeal, and that I'd prefer an oral hearing. But I indicated that I intend to provide written evidence too, but not for another few weeks yet.

I just think it's ridiculous that the situation which has basically been caused by a straightforward clerical error can't be resolved without going to independent appeal. I can understand that decisions with a subjective element in them, eg DLA, can be quite appeal-prone. But a lost form? Please! Is it really the case that the faceless decision maker behind the decision is simply too proud to admit they've bodged it up? I'm sure it'll be a lot cheaper for the DWP just to admit their mistake and settle up.

Well anyway - onto more practical things.

I received the DWP submission about a week ago. In response to this, I tracked down the lady at the Jobcentre that I handed the ES40 tear-off form to, and spoke to her on the phone. Like I say, she actually remembers the fact that I handed the form in.

Question is - do I have any kind of fundamental right to insist that she comes to the tribunal hearing as a witness, to support my case?

Alternatively, I thought perhaps I could prepare a statement of the things she remembers, which I can then get her to sign and stamp. Would such a statement do? If so, then are there any formalities I need to observe?

And what happens if I can't get her to attend in person, and can't get her to sign a statement either? I very much plan to mention the fact that she's the one I handed the form in to at the tribunal hearing, so will the tribunal try to consult with her to check out my story before making a decision? Or will they simply assume that I'm making it up, without bothering to check?

And what if they can't check, perhaps because she's ill, or because she's quit her job? What happens then?

I don't want it to be a case of the DWP's word against mine, if I can help it.

Also - I'm not overlooking something obvious, am I? The ES40 tear-off form does constitute a valid declaration for the last few days of the claim of a person who wants to end their JSA, claim, doesn't it? Or is it discretionary?

To put it another way - imagine a previously unemployed person had just started work, about a week after their last signing day. Would I be right in thinking that this person would be able to get their last few days JSA without having to take time off in the first two weeks of their new job in order to attend their normal fortnightly signing appointment? Or not? And if so, how do they go about it?

Thanks in advance of your replies. Qualified legal advice is very welcome, but even if you're only able to offer conjecture and half-baked opinions, please post that too. I would pop to the CAB, but unfortunately my local CAB's opening hours are very short. I have started work since then, and I'm falling behind on OU coursework too, my time is simply too precious. I need to give this one my best shot, but I can't afford to spend too long on it.

Thanks again.

seven-day-weekend

You mentioned you were flying? They stop your claim automatically if you go abroad on holiday.

dag_2

You mentioned you were flying? They stop your claim automatically if you go abroad on holiday.

Thanks for that, but I think you're missing the point. Perhaps I'm not being clear enough.

I'm not trying to get JSA for the time I was away on holiday. All I'm trying to get JSA for is the 13 days before I went on holiday, during which time I was still in the UK and actively seeking work.

In other words, the problem is that they closed the claim down for an earlier date than they should have done.

Also - I don't think that the closure of claims for going on holiday is quite as "automatic" as you think. Certainly in this case, the decision maker's submission in defence of their decision not to pay me contains absolutely no mention of the fact that I went out of the UK on holiday.

If the decision maker thought that the fact I went out of the UK on holiday was relevant to the reason why they terminated the claim, then they would have mentioned it. But they haven't. On the contrary, the reason given for closing my claim was that I failed to attend fortnightly signing.

Obviously I failed to attend signing, you might say, because I was out of the UK on holiday at the time. But point is, I didn't think I needed to attend, because I had already handed in an ES40 tear-off form beforehand, advising them of the fact that the rellies were taking me away on holiday.

I have had many other spells of unemployment in the past, for which my claims have been correctly terminated when I've submitted the ES40/UB40 tear-off form, for example, when I've found work. But this is the first time that a declaration I've made in an ES40 tear-off form has not been honoured.

Anyway, I hope it's getting clearer, I do appreciate the help, please ask more questions if it still seems vague.

seven-day-weekend

Sorry, I misunderstood - thanks for explaining.

dag_2

That's okay.

ukdickie31

Mistakes do happen and as you have pointed out, the person who you handed the form to can confirm that you did complete the ES40 and hand it in.

In this case, a memo can be sent from the Jobcentre to the Benefit Office stating this and that the claim was closed incorrectly. A revised award should be made for the missing dates based upon the statement made by the Jobcentre.

I know it can be done because I have done statements on behalf of Jobseekers in similar situations myself, and they were paid.

dag_2

Mistakes do happen and as you have pointed out, the person who you handed the form to can confirm that you did complete the ES40 and hand it in.

In this case, a memo can be sent from the Jobcentre to the Benefit Office stating this and that the claim was closed incorrectly. A revised award should be made for the missing dates based upon the statement made by the Jobcentre.

Thanks for that, I appreciate that.

The latest is that I prepared a statement which I showed to her, and asked her to sign and stamp. At first she said that the content of the statement is fine, she's fully in agreement with it. However, she said she just wanted to check with the appeals section what's going on before she signs and stamps it.

But now it seems she's not sure what she does remember after all.

It would be tempting to get in a flap about that, and go "yeah but no but yeah but ra ra ra" but I don't think that would be very productive. I think I need to be calm and collected, and clarify exactly what she does remember. The more detailed her memory is, the better, but even if she can only remember vague stuff, I think that will still help.

It would still be worth my while submitting my objection to their statement, and turning up at the tribunal hearing. It's just a lot harder if I don't have that statement signed and stamped by the person I gave the form to.

Then again - if she did sign and stamp the statement as it currently stands, then it will be very easy for me to prove that the DWP has made a mistake, which means I've basically won, and there would really be no point in the DWP trying to put up a defence.

On the plus side, at least there's a dialog getting going now; I'm not getting the "it's not my job to sort this out" response anywhere near as often now as I was before. So I'll post again if I need more help.

Thanks.

missk249

Next time you go on holiday....... phone up and say you are sick, miss that signing day and then go back on your next signing day. sorted. Thats what someone I know was told to do by their signing officer when they were signing on a fewyears back, that way no money is lost and they cant fook things up because there are no changes to be made, so everything runs smoothly. I know this is not what SHOULD be done, but if jobcentre employees are telling people to do this to prevent extra work, then hey, go for it! lol