Civil Enforcement PCN (Hounslow) for rental car

disgruntlednewbie

Good evening, all, I've been scouring the threads for the past few hours but it seems to have only gotten me more confused, so I decided to jump in here with a new thread (pardon, if this is not appropriate).

Recently received a PCN from Civil Enforcement for a parking violation at a hotel car park in Hounslow, and am not sure how to appeal or whether there really is any opportunity to do so. Was 'parked' (waited in the car park) there for about 30 mins whilst a friend of mine got us checked in & moved bags inside. I guess, fell victim to the common blunder of thinking that if I don't leave the car, I'm not technically 'parked.' Anyway, the charge is £100, but if paid within 14 days, reduced to £60.

However, here's the catch: the car was a hire from a rental company nearby, and they're charging an additional £40 for 'handling' (they've essentially already gone and paid the fee, and now want me to pay them back). I guess the question is, is this a moot point? Should I just pay the damn thing to the rental agency, or is there a possibility for appeal? I keep thinking it's a bit convoluted now that the pcn has been paid by the car hire...

Redx

If they paid as keeper then they deprived you from appealing as Hirer ( not as driver )
They paid so their problem

Check the T & C,s of the hire agreement as I doubt that a private PCN is mentioned, more likely that they used other legal words like fine and penalty, which this wasn't

It's an invoice so never mention fine or penalty at all

I would be getting a chargeback and paying nothing because they failed to follow BVRLA guidelines even though pofa is over 6 years old, plus the hire company fools in not following procedures

disgruntlednewbie

Thanks for that! Yeah, I'll dig up the contract from the rental & see what the actual language is. I do know they have some kind of clause for traffic/parking violations because it was mentioned whilst getting the hire.

I just wonder if they won't be able to charge my credit card (which I'm sure they have kept on file) anyway even if I write them back explaining that I decline to pay...

Redx

I am sure they will have clauses of council parking charges , fines and penalties, but not for invoices from private parking companies


and remember, by not naming the hirer they have forfeited your right to an appeal, so complain to them , then to the BVRLA

disgruntlednewbie

So... dug up the rental agreement:

By entering in to the Contract, you agree to:
[...]
(c) pay relevant administration charges, fees, theft and damage charges, toll charges, parking, traffic or other fines or charges, reasonable court costs and/or any other reasonable charges, in the circumstances set out within these Conditions.

not sure if parking 'charges' is an umbrella term that permits PCNs...

also

You are responsible for all fines and charges issued as a result of you or any driver using the Vehicle. Fines and charges could include: all parking fines or charges; toll charges; towing charges; clamping costs; traffic fines or charges; speeding fines; and any other charges or fines.
15.2 If a fine or charge is sent to us because you haven’t paid a charge or complied with the law, we will take payment for: [...]
&
If you want to appeal, contest or dispute a fine or charge, we will give you the details of the fine or charge and, the organisations who issued the fine or charge. You must deal directly with the issuing organisations to get a refund and/or compensation.

I guess then my concern is, the car hire company may direct dealing with the ppc to get a refund (for which I don't think there is really a case to be made, granted the car was in the car park for 30 mins, which is technically being parked). & since I don't live in London I can't really go back there & check the signage for some possible grounds for complaint...

Probably not even worth pursuing, huh? ...

The_Deep

If they try to claim that charges includes disputed damages for alleged breaches of contract by scammers which have not been agreed by a judge quote unfair
terms and conditions in consumer contracts at them. Read this.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/unfair-terms-explained-for-businesses-full-guide

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams so complain to your MP.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

MonkeyRum

You are responsible for all fines and charges issued as a result of you or any driver using the Vehicle.

They should have made you aware and passed it over to you as it was, as they say, your responsibly. However, they have taken the responsibly upon themselves. Tough luck for them.

If you want to appeal, contest or dispute a fine or charge, we will give you the details

They also failed to do this, as mentioned previously, because they already paid.

nosferatu1001

Yep, they didnt give you the chance, so their tough luck.

disgruntlednewbie

Thank you all for your responses!

So should I proceed to just contact my car hire company declining to pay because they failed to transfer liability and therefore didn't allow the hirer a chance for appeal?

But then, if they quote their T&C directing me to appeal or dispute the invoice with the PPC, then what? Because I've scoured these forums and it seems like there is no valid argument to be made as to why the invoice should not have been issues, since the car was in the car park for that duration... It's not possible in this situation to really argue about unclear signage, 'the car wasn't parked,' etc...

Because from the car hire contract it seems like they won't tolerate a failure to pay - they'll just force the lessee sort out a refund or compensation with the PPC and then compensate the lessee, in turn... which seems like a quest doomed to failure

Redx

correct

you tell them they cannot act as judge , jury and executioner

you tell them they should have followed BVRLA guidelines and named you as hirer and followed the law named POFA

they failed to do all of the above, so they kept the responsibility

if they argue tell them you want to take it to the BVRLA tribunal and insist on a deadlock letter


this isnt about the parking issue, but if they say it is then you say that this issue was between you and the parking company and they had no legal right to get involved other than to name you as hirer, in writing , with a copy of the hire docs and that way they would have allowed the PPC to deal with you directly and they would have had no further involvement


they should also have been aware seeing as POFA is over 6.5 years old, no excuse

nosferatu1001

They paid BEFORE you knew about it, so they did not actually uphold THEIR side of the T&C.
They broke their contract
They cannot then enforce it.