Changing limits to 40 mph

TooManyPoints

Thanks for that. Every day’s a school day!

You're very welcome, Car 54. Glad to be of assistance. You will see from para 8.7 of the same document that a similar facility exists to denote 20mph zones (again, different from simple 20mph limits). However, there are additional requirements involving traffic calming measures for those zones.

Shame the OP still hasn't come back to us with a description of the signs in his examples.

James_N

TooManyPoints wrote: »

What does the "terminal" sign at the beginning of the 40 limit look like? Is it a simple round "40" or is it rectangular with "40" roundel and "40 Zone" underneath?

They are round, and red at the start of the section. In both cases on both roads

TooManyPoints

They are round, and red at the start of the section. In both cases on both roads

Have a look at Section 8.1 one of this manual:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf

If the signs are like those in figure 8-1 then they should be accompanied by repeaters as described in Section 8.3. If there are none whatsoever over the distances you mention it could be argued that the limit is not sufficiently signed. Section 8.3.1 explains why.

Richard53

Mercdriver wrote: »

Andy, you don't come across as clever when trying to nitpick.


Go here for my reference. They are on a rectangular board but a circular disk with a grey circle. You will see them in urban areas 20mph advisory with white roundels. They are unenforceable as only red circles are mandatory. It is the reason why roundels on the floor are not enforceable. Lots of people had their convictions quashed at the Severn Bridge for this reason.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7301539,-4.7087519,3a,75y,9.68h,92.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siXAXQyW41SMTh4Q_UywZcg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


https://goo.gl/maps/5oqWgk9bP87yzrBN8

Similar one here, on the A40 at Treffgarne bends. It's a 30 sign in every detail, except that the border is black. As far as I know, this has no legal force whatsoever. Whether that makes it technically 'advisory' or just guidance I don't know.


https://goo.gl/maps/hdvN6gSLBrFqkFz56

Nearly_Old

Richard53 wrote: »

Similar one here, on the A40 at Treffgarne bends. It's a 30 sign in every detail, except that the border is black. As far as I know, this has no legal force whatsoever. Whether that makes it technically 'advisory' or just guidance I don't know.


https://goo.gl/maps/hdvN6gSLBrFqkFz56

Its a fairly standard sign that is used with the "skidding car" sign when the skid resistance has fallen below a specified minimum level but not far enough to warrant resurfacing. It is an advisory limit that is used to protect the highway authority if someone has a high speed skidding accident.

Richard53

Nearly_Old wrote: »

Its a fairly standard sign that is used with the "skidding car" sign when the skid resistance has fallen below a specified minimum level but not far enough to warrant resurfacing. It is an advisory limit that is used to protect the highway authority if someone has a high speed skidding accident.

Didn't know that, thanks. But it still has no legal force, correct? Other than as a CYA exercise by the highways authority in anticipation of a possible court case.


(The series of bends are surfaced with Shellgrip or similar as the stretch was known as a notorious blackspot, and the surface is indeed in poor condition at the moment. The signs, however, have been up there for many years - probably 20+ - which suggests they are in response to the accident risk rather than liability.)

Nearly_Old

Richard53 wrote: »

Didn't know that, thanks. But it still has no legal force, correct? Other than as a CYA exercise by the highways authority in anticipation of a possible court case.


(The series of bends are surfaced with Shellgrip or similar as the stretch was known as a notorious blackspot, and the surface is indeed in poor condition at the moment. The signs, however, have been up there for many years - probably 20+ - which suggests they are in response to the accident risk rather than liability.)

They are just a CYA excercise and many are left out for long periods of time. Its cheaper than getting a permanent reduced speed limit as that would have to be justified but all you need is a few low SRIM (Sideway-force Coefficient Routine Investigation Machine) readings and up go the advisory signs.

a.turner

Nearly_Old wrote: »

They are just a CYA excercise and many are left out for long periods of time. Its cheaper than getting a permanent reduced speed limit as that would have to be justified but all you need is a few low SRIM (Sideway-force Coefficient Routine Investigation Machine) readings and up go the advisory signs.

How is that cheaper than writing a TRO?

Car_54

[QUOTE=Richard53;76015019Whether that makes it technically 'advisory' or just guidance I don't know.


https://goo.gl/maps/hdvN6gSLBrFqkFz56[/QUOTE]
Aren’t they the same thing?

James_N

TooManyPoints wrote: »

Have a look at Section 8.1 one of this manual:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf

If the signs are like those in figure 8-1 then they should be accompanied by repeaters as described in Section 8.3. If there are none whatsoever over the distances you mention it could be argued that the limit is not sufficiently signed. Section 8.3.1 explains why.

Thanks for this. The situation is that the sign:

Figure 8‐6 Diagram 676 (S10‐2‐8) Entrance to a zone where a maximum speed limit of 40 mph is in force

Is NOT in place at either site, and that there are no repeaters on the road or on the verge on the unsigned road over (say) 5 miles.

I think this is too little for drivers to have confidence in the limits, and undermines the signage system.