Solar ti doe

TheOldTortoise

I fully appreciate that this name has come up in several threads and I have read a great many of them trying to find answers to a few questions. If they've been covered before, my apologies.

The issue is .... Project Solar.

OK so I know the automatic response, and I'm being very cautious with them. I had a quote last weekend for a 12 panel system generating 4kW + battery and odds and sods for ...gulp....£14000! The rep was really nice and I don't bear him any ill will but he did make it seem like a good deal.

Not really knowing much about it and being keen to go green, we put our names down but by Monday I had visited these forums and cancelled the agreement with them.

Except that then I had the good old sales trick of having them offer me the same system for £10000 ( I won't go into the excuse they used to be able to offer the reduction, needless to say I told them I found it disingenuous of them )

So - a better price. But I knew that price was still at least £3000 off some of the prices I had seen here - and they admitted as much.

Then came the bamboozlement.

I was given figures regarding Social Energy and what I suspected were ludicrous estimations regarding returns I might make. And of course their "guarantee" and efficiency of their award winning panels...or batteries...or whatever it was.

They said they could drop to £9900 but no lower. I didn't and don't believe them and was doubtful of their promises. They told me to go away and research all I can and then they'd call back next weekend to discuss any questions.

Before I ask them and get fed a pack of half truths and misdirection, I thought I'd pose some questions here to see what opinions people have.

Firstly, as part of my research, I have read this evening, that the government are to be introducing this "Smart Export Guarantee" (SEG) as of the 1st of January 2020 which, as I understand it, is an initiative to pay 5p per kW to customers of new installations of solar panels via energy suppliers with over 150000 customers or something.

The details are lost in a fuzz inside my brain, but essentially, I'm wondering if waiting for this scheme to be implemented would give a better return, or more reliable one, that Social Energy ( through Project Solar or any other supplier which uses grid sharing)? Finding any documentation about the actual real life returns on Social Energy are like trying to search for Atlantis. There are charts and guesses but nothing as concrete as what the government have "promised".

But then of course, given that we will probably be out of the EU by then, could all of that change or cause a drop in imports to such an extent that installations wouldn't be worth any energy return schemes for a good while? I often find that holding off for the next possible saving, sometimes ends in missing out of the best deal.

I have tried looking around at more local firms (Swansea) but none really seem to be offering the same 4kW panels with battery and grid sharing, so obtaining like for like figures is tricky. I don't want to phone up someone else on the internet and have to sit through another 3 hours of sales spiel and have to go through the whole sales discount dance if I can avoid it.

Some figures on here have estimated a 4kW system with all the inverter and stuff, without a battery to be around £5k. So with a battery, and some (??) returns via grid sharing, would £8k be more realistic? That is kind of the figure I have in my head but I may be way out.

I will stress that I am in my mid forties, and shall likely never see any return on this investment even at a much lower price. So my motivation is being more environmentally conscious. I suspect my partner's motivation is due to some post-Brexit based apocalyptic nightmare which she is hoping to survive - at least that is what the 300 tins of chick peas under the spare bed would suggest is her focus.

I don't want to give money to some big company if there are local ones out there who'll appreciate the business and who don't need my money to pay of pages of fancy graphics and salespeople. But it's difficult to know where to turn with a technology that seems to be shifting and improving as quickly as solar.

I appreciate any input you people might have.


Some info : I have a South East facing roof ( not sure of pitch, but it's quite a large space) no shade, Swansea, South Wales. I currently use gas appliances (heating and cooking) although this may change should I go solar. Family of 4 - two kids 3 and 6 years old. Someone always home during the day so power is used to some degree.

Solarchaser

Can you give details of what is included?
What make and wattage of inverter, presumably it's a hybrid meaning it will take the solar energy from the panels and then decide to charge it's own batteries, or supply the house, based on your load.
So it will probably have 2 wattage output numbers.
For instance 3.6kw AC from solar, and 3kw AC from batteries.
What kWh of batteries are included?

The thing about it is the batteries are the expensive bit, so if you have for instance
4kw of panels on 3.6kw inverter (pretty much standard) and a 2.4kwh battery, you are being robbed.
But if that 2.4kwh battery is actually a 12kwh battery, then it's not such a bad deal.

The gridsharing thing.... I'm not so sure about, I've not seen anything that points to a positive financial outcome for the end user.

TheOldTortoise

Thank you for your response.

The panels are Evolution UltraMax 330w panels.

A SolaX twin tracker inverter - whatever that means (with lifetime guarantee! Wooo)

There’s a voltage optimiser which I asked to be removed to lower the cost but was told it came with the battery and was required for it to run efficiently. I am dubious about this but I’m no expert.

The battery seems a bit vague. It’s a Triple Power battery but there are a few models talked about and there’s nothing I can see at the moment which gives specifics. I believe more can be added to the system to boost storage to 26kW but from memory, mine would be a 4.5kW one , 0.5kW of which is reserved to feed the social energy thingy.

Zarch

Companies like Octopus Energy are already providing a SEG type service, paying 5.5p per kWh on their Outgoing product. No need to wait until 2020.

https://octopus.energy/outgoing/

They also do an Agile outgoing version which tracks wholesale energy prices.

You can find all the prices etc for each UK region on my little site:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6004585/my-octopus-agile-go-tariff-analysis-comparison-website

Hope this helps?

1961Nick

TheOldTortoise wrote: »

Thank you for your response.

The panels are Evolution UltraMax 330w panels.

A SolaX twin tracker inverter - whatever that means (with lifetime guarantee! Wooo)

There’s a voltage optimiser which I asked to be removed to lower the cost but was told it came with the battery and was required for it to run efficiently. I am dubious about this but I’m no expert.

The battery seems a bit vague. It’s a Triple Power battery but there are a few models talked about and there’s nothing I can see at the moment which gives specifics. I believe more can be added to the system to boost storage to 26kW but from memory, mine would be a 4.5kW one , 0.5kW of which is reserved to feed the social energy thingy.

The maximum depth of discharge will be between 10% & 20%. With the 0.5kWh social energy reserve, that'll leave you with somewhere between 3.1kWh & 3.5kWh. That's not really enough considering £10K will buy a 4kWh array with 10-12kWh of storage...and no social energy reserve.

You say you have a large roof, so I'd suggest looking at mid-range panels rather than more expensive high output products. The saving could buy another battery...or a larger array. The only additional cost of more panels is a bit more mounting rail which is negligible.

TheOldTortoise

Thank you. Yes, that might make sense and you’re right, judging by our usage, 3.5kW would be limiting.

However, my thoughts are that if it weren’t for grid sharing, I’d possibly be better off without a battery given the cost of them and the likelihood of them lowering in price.

Given that the battery degrades and will need replacing at my cost, buying more of them at a higher cost might not be wise. Whereas high output panels which have guarantees on them will effectively secure the investment. Not to mention I may have more space on my roof, should I decide to get more panels.

In the case of the triple power batteries, if they can be linked together for more storage, it may be better to buy more at a later date once the price of them comes down.

Using up all my roof space with lesser quality panels and spending money on a product with a limited lifespan would not seem prudent. Even though it may suit my usage and needs more immediately, it limits my future options.

I’m not sure that my logic is sound, so I’m prepared to be mistaken.

There doesn’t seem to be a huge amount of consumer info storage and its returns for grid sharing customers so it’s difficult for me to predict what might benefit us the most.

sunnykent

£9,900 is still too much compared to the "real" price given my experience. I think you could do better, and should ask for quotes from other companies - your deadline is the end of September when the VAT rate rises.

I've put a deposit down on a new solar + battery system. Just waiting for DNO approval before installation. I was intrigued that the 3 companies I asked to quote had completely different views on the best technology, how to configure the panels, and price!

It might be helpful to get a sense for the systems I was quoted for (in Kent, where we typically pay a premium for building work!)...

I went for a 6.12kwp system - 18x340w LG Neon 2 panels (25 year warranty for performance and operation), Enphase IQ7 microinverters plus a 6.3kwh Triple Power battery
- Total cost was just under £12,000 inc VAT (being conservative, that's a 15 year payback for me when not accounting for inflation, but a good return on my money vs my mortgage rate)
- Of this, the 6.3kwh battery was £3,300 fitted
- There was also a 4.5kwh option at £2,800 fitted
- And to double up on the 6.3kwh battery (to 12.6kwh) was £5,500 fitted
(Note: I have shading issues hence needing a more expensive microinverter setup)

There were some other options I considered:
- Change to JA Solar 310w panels (Enphase microinverters) - 10% reduction in the system - would save £2,000 (but I wasn't keen on the less comprehensive guarantees even though the headline financial returns were better)
- Another company quoted for a 19 panel 7.41kwp system using Sunpower 390w panels and solar edge - £12,400 (ouch!!) plus a Tesla Powerwall 2 (£9,000 - double ouch!)
- Eon quoted for a 5.2kwp using 17x 305kw JA Solar panels with Solar Edge and a 6.3kwh Triple Power battery - £11,300 (so virtually the same as the one I went with, but with inferior panels/lower output - the amount included for the 6.3kwh Triple Power battery was also £3,300)

TheOldTortoise

Of course, I hadn’t even factored in the VAT rise. For me, that discounts the possibility of waiting to see what incentives the government may provide in 2020.

It sounds as though you’re going to have a very effective system. For some reason, I wasn’t offered any alternatives to a setup.

Ultimately more storage would be ideal as we will often stay up until midnight to make the most of the peace and quiet that sleeping children affords us so our 4kW won’t last long.

I’m just not sure that I shouldn’t wait for a year or two for the price of them to fall, and then link them (or for their capacity to increase). Say for example, if a £3000 battery will only cost £2000 next year (figures plucked out of my imagination), I can’t see that I would save that £1000 difference in that interim period by getting a higher capacity now.

Certainly I should get more quotes but I fear that, as you have mentioned, that the varied combinations and conflicting advice may leave me more confused that I need to be!

1961Nick

TheOldTortoise wrote: »

Of course, I hadn’t even factored in the VAT rise. For me, that discounts the possibility of waiting to see what incentives the government may provide in 2020.

It sounds as though you’re going to have a very effective system. For some reason, I wasn’t offered any alternatives to a setup.

Ultimately more storage would be ideal as we will often stay up until midnight to make the most of the peace and quiet that sleeping children affords us so our 4kW won’t last long.

I’m just not sure that I shouldn’t wait for a year or two for the price of them to fall, and then link them (or for their capacity to increase). Say for example, if a £3000 battery will only cost £2000 next year (figures plucked out of my imagination), I can’t see that I would save that £1000 difference in that interim period by getting a higher capacity now.

Certainly I should get more quotes but I fear that, as you have mentioned, that the varied combinations and conflicting advice may leave me more confused that I need to be!

A guarantee on an inverter or battery is a useful thing...assuming the company doesn't fold in the interim. A guarantee on the panels is probably unnecessary as they're very unlikely to fail & the labour cost of replacing one would likely dwarf the actual cost of the faulty panel.

Don't assume that a lower wattage panel is inferior in quality to a high output one. If you've got plenty of roof space, try & achieve the highest output per £1000 rather than per square meter.

Solarchaser

I'd agree with Nick.
If your high spec panels are £400 each, but you can get 300w panels for £120 each, then you can cover your whole roof, get more wattage and save money too.

For reference I used fleabay around 8 months ago and waited till a particular seller had rec 300w twin peak panels because they were ideal for shading, and got 6600w for £2k, I knew exactly how much roof i had to fill, and how much money I had to spend.

I am similar to yourself in that I have 3 young kids and stay up a bit after they have gone down, my wife is stay at home so the washing machine etc are on quite a bit through the day and I'm generally finding that 10kwh of batteries is the ideal, though 6kwh is generally enough, 4kwh would not be enough.

I also see quite alot of middle of the day cycling where it goes cloudy but the batteries kick in to supply the house.

If I was you I'd price up just getting a normal inverter and panels filling your roof, and think about batteries as a separate thing.

I use a sofar me3000sp as my battery storage inverter, it monitors the output of the panels vs the load on the house and charges or discharges to help the house load.
It uses pylontech 2.4kwh batteries which due to 80% dod gives 2kwh useable. I have 3 batteries at the moment.

As a cost comparison you could pick up the sofar and pylontech from fleabay for just over £3k.

Solarchaser

As a quick reference, solax hybrid 3.7kw inverter plus 4.5kwh triple power battery is just under 3k on fleabay.

I mention that site as it's easy to search for comparisons, and you can assume that a company is getting the kit cheaper than it's being retailed on Ebay