HX car park - Grace period court claim

Pinksox17

As the registered keeper, I have received a court claim from HX car park management, service date 11/06/19. I have followed the advice in the newbie thread and submitted the AoS. I also sent an SAR and have received all of that information back to me.

The PCN was issued for not buying a ticket within the 10 minute grace period, as evidenced by ANPR. The PDT machine record shows a ticket purchase 10 minutes and 31 seconds after entry for a 2 hour stay. The PDT machine in question only takes cash and the driver was required to go to the cash point to withdraw money, and then get change before they were able to purchase a ticket. The driver is shown exiting the car park prior to the end of the parking time paid.

A defence is in the process of being compiled and will be added to this thread as soon as a first draft is complete.

KeithP

Hi and welcome.

What is the Issue Date on your Claim Form?

adam5816

What a joke, you've paid yet they still want to extort more money out of you for being human?. I hope you kick their **s in court and make them compensate you for wasting your time.

Meanwhile, as The Deep always says in every thread;

you should still complain to your MP regarding the predatory behaviour of the scamming PPC's, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Pinksox17

KeithP wrote: »

Hi and welcome.

What is the Issue Date on your Claim Form?

Issue date was 11/06/19. I mistakenly described this as the 'service' date in my original post.

KeithP

Pinksox17 wrote: »

Issue date was 11/06/19.

With a Claim Issue Date of 11th June, and having done the Acknowledgement of Service in a timely manner, you have until 4pm on Monday 15th July 2019 to file your Defence.

That's a little over a week away. Loads of time to produce a Defence, but please don't leave it to the last minute.


When you are happy with the content, your Defence should be filed via email as suggested here:

Print your Defence.
1. Sign it and date it.
   
2. Scan the signed document back in and save it as a pdf.
   
3. Send that pdf as an email attachment to CCBCAQ@Justice.gov.uk
   
4. Just put the claim number and the word Defence in the email title, and in the body of the email something like 'Please find my Defence attached'.
   
5. Log into MCOL after a few days to see if the Claim is marked "defence received". If not chase the CCBC until it is.
   
6. Do not be surprised to receive an early copy of the Claimant's Directions Questionnaire, they are just trying to keep you under pressure.
   
7. Wait for your DQ from the CCBC, or download one from the internet, and then re-read post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread to find out exactly what to do with it.

Pinksox17

1. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.

2. The Defendant was the registered keeper and driver of vehicle registration number xxxx on the material date.

3. The facts are that a Pay and Display Ticket (PDT) was purchased at xx:xx on the material date for the vehicle to be parked on the land for a total of two hours until xx:xx.!

4. An ANPR capture of the vehicle provided as evidence for the PCN shows entry at xx:xx:xx and exit at xx:xx:xx on the material date.

5. The PCN states that the notice relates to the ‘period!of!parking’ – the evidence shows the vehicle as it is entering and exiting, and NOT in!parking!conditions, i,e. in a stationary position, parked within a!parking!bay.

6. The signage informs drivers that they must purchase a ticket for!parking!within a 10 minute grace period, but does not make clear that the charges are for navigating the space when entering and exiting.

7. The Independent Parking Committee (IPC) Code of Practice terms state that drivers are to be provided with a sufficient amount of time to park and read any signs so they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to remain on the site.

8. This grace period provided to drivers should take into account any and all situations that could delay a user from purchasing a ticket. This includes, but is not limited to: mobility, the presence (and therefore safety) of children, correct means for payment and the conditions of driving within the car park.

9. The Keeper therefore states that the additional time beyond the 10 minutes grace period, alleged to be 31 seconds, is a reasonable amount when taking into account the driver’s personal factors.

10. The driver has outlined in their witness statement that, on the material date, it was necessary for them to locate a cash machine and the appropriate change, to enable the purchase of a ticket from the PDT machine. Therefore, showing intent to comply with the operators conditions.

11. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient proprietary interest in the land, or that it has the necessary authorisation from the landowner to issue!parking!charge notices, and to pursue payment by means of litigation.

12. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, at Section 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case £100. The claim includes an additional £60, for which no calculation or explanation is given, and which appears to be an attempt at double recovery.

13. In summary, it is the Defendant's position that the claim is without merit, and has no real prospect of success. Accordingly, the Court is invited to strike out the claim of its own initiative, using its case management powers pursuant to CPR 3.4.

I believe the facts contained in this Defence are!true.!

Name!
Signature
Date


I can't tell you why, but for some reason my computer seems to have replaced some of the spaces with exclamation marks. It obviously feels as aggrieved as I do!

KeithP

If you are copying here direct from MS Word, then that can cause problems.

Read this:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5706338/please-dont-copy-and-paste-from-word-outlook

Coupon-mad

The PDT machine record shows a ticket purchase 10 minutes and 31 seconds after entry for a 2 hour stay.

What an utter scam, especially as the PDT machine timer is a separate system & clock to the ANPR camera clocks and we've seen they are often 2 or 3 mins out with each other.

You can test this by driving in with a dashcam on (or phone being held by a passenger) recording the correct time of arrival, then park quickly & go straight to the machine and FILM the clock on that machine. Do not pay - leave.

Drive straight out, no dithering, within 5 mins, exiting quickly to avoid a PCN.

Then the next day or two, email the PPC and ask for the images and timings of your car, as collected on xx/07/19, under your rights for a SAR, as you know they keep images for a few weeks even with no contravention.

Then compare the SAR timings with the photos and timings you had. Different? Especially, different from the PDT machine by several minutes? Hope so, because that then becomes the evidence that later can win the case.

Bear in mind NOT to talk about 'going to the cash point' unless it was within the site. You can't park then leave the location to get cash, not even on Council land, and not even over the road, so do not say that.

Umkomaas

7. The Independent Parking Committee

It's now The International Parking Community. Has been for a few years.

The_Deep

They might have difficulty in explaining to a judge why they were bringing this to court, after all, it is hardly a serious breach of contract.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_minimis

He she might even consider it to be an abuse of process, in which case HH may not be very pleased.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6014081/abuse-of-process-district-judge-tells-bwlegal

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams so complain to your MP.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

Pinksox17

Coupon-mad wrote: »

What an utter scam, especially as the PDT machine timer is a separate system & clock to the ANPR camera clocks and we've seen they are often 2 or 3 mins out with each other.

Bear in mind NOT to talk about 'going to the cash point' unless it was within the site. You can't park then leave the location to get cash, not even on Council land, and not even over the road, so do not say that.

Is the onus on the claimant to prove that their systems are synchronised, if requested, or for the defendant to disprove it? The car park in question is an 82 mile round trip, so it would take some planning to execute the suggested exercise. Although it would undoubtedly be worth it, on the assumption that it could be reclaimed in the schedule of cost if the case was successful?

How are people who are unaware that a machine only accepts exact change able to expected to pay for their parking, without leaving the premises?!

The_Deep wrote: »

He she might even consider it to be an abuse of process, in which case HH may not be very pleased.

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams so complain to your MP.

I hope so! There will certainly be a letter going to the local MP.