PIP awarded - wrong rates?

Demerara

Alice_Holt wrote: »

OP - What points were you awarded and for which descriptors.

Why do you think an enhanced award should have been awarded?
What additional points should you have got, and on which descriptors.
Do you have compelling medical evidence to support these additional points, and to counter the assessment's rationale for not awarding these points?

Are you prepared for the possibility that a second DWP decision maker might remove your current award at MR stage?
Can you cope with the stress of managing an appeal on your own?
Do you understand the appeal process?

I will need to read more about the MR process. I did my application on my own but did loads of research beforehand. Once I know what the implications of MR are, I will be able to take an informed decision.

Interestingly, I sent a letter to DWP disputing the recommendations of the HCP (from the assessment report) before a decision was made and two days later got the decision letter. Coincidence?

Alice_Holt

Demerara wrote: »

Regarding the points, I didn't get awarded points for descriptor 9 when I have 8 points for communication (descriptor 8).

Are you sure about this:
"8. Reading and understanding signs, symbols and words.
a. Can read and understand basic and complex written information either unaided or using spectacles or contact lenses. 0 points.
b. Needs to use an aid or appliance, other than spectacles or contact lenses, to be able to read or understand either basic or complex written information. 2 points.
c. Needs prompting to be able to read or understand complex written information. 2 points.
d. Needs prompting to be able to read or understand basic written information. 4 points.
e. Cannot read or understand signs, symbols or words at all. 8 points.

9. Engaging with other people face to face.
a. Can engage with other people unaided. 0 points.
b. Needs prompting to be able to engage with other people. 2 points.
c. Needs social support to be able to engage with other people. 4 points.
d. Cannot engage with other people due to such engagement causing either –
(i) overwhelming
psychological distress to the claimant; or
(ii) the claimant to exhibit behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person. 8 points."

Or do you mean Descriptor 7 (not 8)?
7d. Needs communication support to be able to express or understand basic verbal information. 8 points.

Did you just get points for this descriptor?
What points were you awarded and for which descriptors.?

Alice_Holt

Demerara wrote: »

Interestingly, I sent a letter to DWP disputing the recommendations of the HCP (from the assessment report) before a decision was made and two days later got the decision letter. Coincidence?

Very unlikely, the DWP are taking many weeks to respond to enquiries.

Demerara

Alice_Holt wrote: »

Are you sure about this:
"8. Reading and understanding signs, symbols and words.
a. Can read and understand basic and complex written information either unaided or using spectacles or contact lenses. 0 points.
b. Needs to use an aid or appliance, other than spectacles or contact lenses, to be able to read or understand either basic or complex written information. 2 points.
c. Needs prompting to be able to read or understand complex written information. 2 points.
d. Needs prompting to be able to read or understand basic written information. 4 points.
e. Cannot read or understand signs, symbols or words at all. 8 points.

9. Engaging with other people face to face.
a. Can engage with other people unaided. 0 points.
b. Needs prompting to be able to engage with other people. 2 points.
c. Needs social support to be able to engage with other people. 4 points.
d. Cannot engage with other people due to such engagement causing either –
(i) overwhelming
psychological distress to the claimant; or
(ii) the claimant to exhibit behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person. 8 points."

Or do you mean Descriptor 7 (not 8)?
7d. Needs communication support to be able to express or understand basic verbal information. 8 points.

Did you just get points for this descriptor?
What points were you awarded and for which descriptors.?

Sorry Alice Holt, yes it is descriptor 7 not 8.

And yes, these are the only points I got for daily living.

I believe I should get 4 more points for 9c.

Alice_Holt

Criteria for 8 points on communication support:

"Communication support means support from another person trained in
communicating with people with specific communication needs (for example, a
sign language interpreter). .
Claimants could still meet this descriptor even if they use aids, where those aids
do not restore speech, hearing or understanding to an acceptable level.
Individuals who cannot express or understand verbal information and would
need communication support to do so should receive the appropriate descriptor
even if they do not have access to this support."

Criteria for descriptor 9:

"This activity considers a claimant’s ability to engage with other people, which means to
interact face-to-face in a contextually and socially appropriate manner, understand body
language and establish relationships.
Activities 7 and 9 are not mutually exclusive. If claimants require support to engage with
others under activity 9, as well as communication support under activity 7, then their needs
must be considered under both activities.
Notes:
An inability to engage face-to-face must be due to the impact of impairment and not simply a
matter of preference by the claimant.
Social support means support from another person trained or experienced in assisting
people to engage in social situations, or someone directly experienced in supporting the
claimant themselves (for example a family member or carer), who can compensate for
limited ability to understand and respond to body language, other social cues and assist
social integration. Most claimants with sensory impairments will be able to fully engage with
others independently, however they may score on both activities 7 and 9 if, for example
anxiety arising from their impairment means they reasonably require social support to
engage with people generally.
Behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person
must be as a result of an underlying health condition and the claimant’s inability to control
their behaviour.
When considering whether claimants can engage with others, consideration should be given
to whether they can engage with people generally, not just those people they know well.
If an individual cannot reliably complete an activity in the way described in a descriptor then
they should be considered unable to complete it at that level and an alternative descriptor
selected"

From the assessment guide.
Hope this helps you to come to an informed decision.

Also look at:
https://pipinfo.net/activities/communicating-verbally
https://pipinfo.net/activities/engaging-with-other-people-face-to-face

Be aware of the ruling in:
https://www.gov.uk/administrative-appeals-tribunal-decisions/secretary-of-state-for-work-and-pensions-v-as-pip-2017-ukut-454-aac-1
and:
http://administrativeappeals.decisions.tribunals.gov.uk//Aspx/view.aspx?id=4829

Would this apply :

"By way of example, a claimant may be a deaf person who needs a sign language interpreter with them in order to communicate. They accordingly need “communication support” under activity 7. However, they are completely comfortable in a social environment, and are able to make friends and lead an active social life. They do not satisfy 9c, for they are able to engage with others more than adequately. Indeed, they would not score any points under activity 9. The fact that they need someone to provide “communication support” does not mean that the other person is necessarily providing support with “engagement.” Rather, that person is purely helping with the ability to “communicate verbally.”

However, on any view the claimant did not fall into that category. Her case was that she found social situations very difficult, as there was usually more than one person and there was a lot of background noise. Indeed the Health Professional, having recorded that social situations could be difficult due to background noise, and this could be very stressful, stated that “this is supported with the informal observations of the face to face consultation.” In those circumstances the parties agree that, whilst the tribunal’s finding that she satisfied descriptor 7c did not automatically lead to the conclusion that she also satisfied descriptor 9c, it was nevertheless incumbent on the tribunal to consider whether descriptor 9c applied, and to give adequate reasons for its decision."

Google http://administrativeappeals.decisions.tribunals.gov.uk//Aspx/view.aspx?id=4829 and follow the link.

Demerara

Alice_Holt wrote: »

Criteria for 8 points on communication support:

"Communication support means support from another person trained in
communicating with people with specific communication needs (for example, a
sign language interpreter). .
Claimants could still meet this descriptor even if they use aids, where those aids
do not restore speech, hearing or understanding to an acceptable level.
Individuals who cannot express or understand verbal information and would
need communication support to do so should receive the appropriate descriptor
even if they do not have access to this support."

Criteria for descriptor 9:

"This activity considers a claimant’s ability to engage with other people, which means to
interact face-to-face in a contextually and socially appropriate manner, understand body
language and establish relationships.
Activities 7 and 9 are not mutually exclusive. If claimants require support to engage with
others under activity 9, as well as communication support under activity 7, then their needs
must be considered under both activities.
Notes:
An inability to engage face-to-face must be due to the impact of impairment and not simply a
matter of preference by the claimant.
Social support means support from another person trained or experienced in assisting
people to engage in social situations, or someone directly experienced in supporting the
claimant themselves (for example a family member or carer), who can compensate for
limited ability to understand and respond to body language, other social cues and assist
social integration. Most claimants with sensory impairments will be able to fully engage with
others independently, however they may score on both activities 7 and 9 if, for example
anxiety arising from their impairment means they reasonably require social support to
engage with people generally.
Behaviour which would result in a substantial risk of harm to the claimant or another person
must be as a result of an underlying health condition and the claimant’s inability to control
their behaviour.
When considering whether claimants can engage with others, consideration should be given
to whether they can engage with people generally, not just those people they know well.
If an individual cannot reliably complete an activity in the way described in a descriptor then
they should be considered unable to complete it at that level and an alternative descriptor
selected"

From the assessment guide.
Hope this helps you to come to an informed decision.

Also look at:
https://pipinfo.net/activities/communicating-verbally
https://pipinfo.net/activities/engaging-with-other-people-face-to-face

Be aware of the ruling in:
https://www.gov.uk/administrative-appeals-tribunal-decisions/secretary-of-state-for-work-and-pensions-v-as-pip-2017-ukut-454-aac-1
and:
http://administrativeappeals.decisions.tribunals.gov.uk//Aspx/view.aspx?id=4829

Would this apply :

"By way of example, a claimant may be a deaf person who needs a sign language interpreter with them in order to communicate. They accordingly need “communication support” under activity 7. However, they are completely comfortable in a social environment, and are able to make friends and lead an active social life. They do not satisfy 9c, for they are able to engage with others more than adequately. Indeed, they would not score any points under activity 9. The fact that they need someone to provide “communication support” does not mean that the other person is necessarily providing support with “engagement.” Rather, that person is purely helping with the ability to “communicate verbally.”

However, on any view the claimant did not fall into that category. Her case was that she found social situations very difficult, as there was usually more than one person and there was a lot of background noise. Indeed the Health Professional, having recorded that social situations could be difficult due to background noise, and this could be very stressful, stated that “this is supported with the informal observations of the face to face consultation.” In those circumstances the parties agree that, whilst the tribunal’s finding that she satisfied descriptor 7c did not automatically lead to the conclusion that she also satisfied descriptor 9c, it was nevertheless incumbent on the tribunal to consider whether descriptor 9c applied, and to give adequate reasons for its decision."

Google "CPIP 2559 2015-00.doc"

Thank you, that is extremely helpful.

Demerara

Alice_Holt wrote: »

Very unlikely, the DWP are taking many weeks to respond to enquiries.

Is the date on the letter the date the decision was made?

poppy12345

Demerara wrote: »

Is the date on the letter the date the decision was made?

Yes but the letter you sent disputing the recommendations wouldn't have been received for at least a week maybe more. All mail going to DWP has to go through a mail sorting process first.


Even if they had received it, it's very very unlikely that they would have gone against the report because it's rare for this to happen.

Demerara

Another question - given that my letter challenging the recommendation of the HCP was unlikely to have been seen by the DM when they took the decision, does it mean that they eventually get to put my letter on file, it will be considered as a request for MR?

poppy12345

Demerara wrote: »

Another question - given that my letter challenging the recommendation of the HCP was unlikely to have been seen by the DM when they took the decision, does it mean that they eventually get to put my letter on file, it will be considered as a request for MR?

Most likely not a request, if it didn't state it.