Brittania / Bw Legal - At Court stage

socnet

Hi
Thank you for all the great information here. I only wish that I'd seen it sooner. I am at the court stage defending a parking fine for an overstay. I've read a lot of posts on this site now, and I can see many, many things that I should have done differently, but I gues I am where I am now. And asking to see if you can help please.

As per forum advice, I have omitted personal information. Please say if I have left out too much, and I'll try to help.

Over a year ago, I stayed for 3h15m in a car park near a restaurant, where I was dining (I have a credit card bill proof). Unbeknownst to me, they had recently (since we last dined there) had Britannia run their car park. The car park is shared between three other restaurants. The car park is monitored with ANPR and boards in the car park said that you can stay for 3 hours or there is a £60 penalty. I didn't see the boards on the day, and the restaurant never told me about them. I gather it was all new for them. Since the day (and many complaints) there are now big signs in the restaurant stating to register your number plate with them to stay longer. I also know of friends who have had their "parking fines" cancelled after complaining to the restuarant.

Anyway, they sent a Driver Request to our house. My mum is the registered keeper and she replied with my details. I then received a letter with the fine. I contacted Britannia and told them I was dining there. They weren't interested. I told the restaurant and they said there was nothing they could do.

So I googled Britannia and followed advice online about ignoring them. Eventually they involved Bwlegal , who started harassing me. I blocked Bwlegal's phone number and took the matter to Popla. Popla were utterly biased (IMHO) and I lost the case. Perhaps this isn't surprising.

Time passed. The next I heard was a Couty Court letter from Northampton. I realised it was serious. I contacted the restaurant again. They said that they "could have helped before but now it was too late". That is annoying but it was a different person I saw that time.

I understand the court process a little (I've used it to chase debts before), so I responded to the claim online. I completed the AOS. Then I filed a defence. Compared to the ones on here then it is very Mickey Mouse.

I guess it's very likely that Bwlegal will continue and we will then be at the WS stage, and then I'll be attending court.

Any help you can give is very appreciated. The gist of my defence is as follows:

I provided a list of the irregularities in Britannia's claim:

1) They sent a photo of the signage from the site, but it wasn't clear where or when the photo was taken. Nor does it show where the signs were located at the site (a year ago). Since I don't remember where I parked it's not clear whether I could even have seen the signs on my journey.

2) The signage says that Britannia use “Mobile Parking Enforcement Teams”, but no such team was apparently used to "enforce" the parking. There is no evidence my vehicle was parked at the location. (Note: there is ANPR photos. These prove I passed the cameras, but not that I parked)

3) Someone has changed the signs since the night. Likely this was due to the large number of complaints that the restaurants have told me that they've had. I have photo evidence of some changes to the signs (my evidence is of a change made after the date in question obviously).

4) Britannia have not complied with an SAR. Though I realise now that I didn't use the same method of requesting it as other. I phoned to ask for it. (Note: I'm going to try again for an SAR. Should I give them my claim number? Or just ask for "all data"?)

5) Britannia are known to cancel fines for diners at the site. But they have not cancelled mine or explained why.

The_Deep

Have yo written about this on the restaurant's website, Facebook page and TripAdviser sometimes that spurs the firms into action to get it cancelled.

As I am sure that you are aware, nine times out of ten these tickets are scams so complain to your MP.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

socnet

Hi The Deep

And thank you very much for your reply. I haven't done the social media stuff that you said. I could do, of course. And it may help others even. But I can't see that it will help me. Now that it has actually gone to court, I feel that the restaurant probably can no longer intervene.

The same with the MP really. I agree that these guys are crooks, but the legal process has started and I need to deal with that. I'm not scared by it, and I kind of want to go to court even. But I want help to make my defense as strong as possible. I don't want to rely on silly arguments that will end up with me losing on a technicality.

The_Deep

I think that, if you write bad stuff in the media, while it may be too late for you, it may warn off others, and perhaps pursaude these businesses that getting into bed with scammers can be harmful to their bottom line.

Also, complaints to MPs can involve the scammers in extra work and costs.

Coupon-mad

I didn't see the boards on the day, and the restaurant never told me about them. I gather it was all new for them. Since the day (and many complaints) there are now big signs in the restaurant stating to register your number plate with them to stay longer.

Your defence has legs, and reminds me of the Gambado case here:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5918613/letter-before-claim

See post #37 for his/her final defence draft, which has points you can copy.

You also need points added about this:

Someone has changed the signs since the night. Likely this was due to the large number of complaints that the restaurants have told me that they've had. I have photo evidence of some changes to the signs

And in readiness for Witness Statement and evidence stage (pre-hearing) gather evidence of those complaints and an apologetic email from the restaurant, to show that they wanted this PCN to be cancelled and do not support their diners being penalised, and feel the the old signs failed to make it clear that restaurant diners are entitled to longer.

socnet

Thanks Coupon-mad

I just read the other defence on the link you sent. Like, wow! I wish that I'd submitted that for my defence. As I mentioned earlier, I have already submitted my defence. It's very amateur-ish by comparison. What should I do now? I read that it's a bit pointless to (pay to) submit a new defence, right?

So should I "improve" my defence as the WS stage instead? Or just wait until court and gather the suggested evidence?

Note: I've been to court before as a defendent on a non-parking matter (it was non-payment for a bill where there had been lack of service). On that occasion, the judge agreed that the company hadn't done what they promised and I was "generally" in the right, but since I had paid nothing, he still said I was partly at fault and awarded them like 20% of their invoice and thus I had to pay it and got stuck with the costs, too. So how do judges generally handle parking things? Is it likely to be black-and-white, ie all-or-nothing here?

Coupon-mad

So should I "improve" my defence as the WS stage instead?

Yes, and you can then use some of the arguments from the Gambado case.

socnet

Update: I have now received the Directions Questionnaire from the court and a letter from BW Legal stating their intention to continue

beamerguy

socnet wrote: »

Update: I have now received the Directions Questionnaire from the court and a letter from BW Legal stating their intention to continue

I am sure that they want to continue but will they win ???

You said in your first post ...
"The car park is monitored with ANPR and boards in the car park said that you can stay for 3 hours or there is a £60 penalty."

Does it really use the word "PENALTY" ??

I assume BWLegal has added a fake £60 in their claim.

If so, please read this
Abuse of Process ... District Judge tells BWLegal
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6014081

See post #14 by coupon-mad. You can use this in full in your defence. Let's hope your judge will be the next one to kick BWLegal out of court

The_Deep

If they have used the word "penalty" they have shot themselves jn the foot,

socnet

Regrettably not. I wrote the word "penalty" as a description only. The words they used was "Penalty Charge Notice". See the image (I redacted the location).

This is a link to the picture. I'm a new user and can't post links, but hopefully you can understand how to access the URL: www. ibb.co/Z6vhHFB