Port of Wells PCN

busylizzy222

I have posted previously but was advised to use a username that did not identify me, so this is a different one.

I now have a letter from CE Ltd saying' in accordance with Pre Action Conduct and Protocol for debt claims....final opportunity to pay'...withing 30 days. Is this a LBC?

This is an outline of the story. I am looking for advice on which (or all?) line of defence should I go with...or should I just pay up?

We live in Norfolk but quite a way from Wells next the sea and visit regularly but are not 'locals' Last year the Harbour car park introduced ANPR cameras. We had been using the car park for years to 'wait' while one of us went to the chip shop opposite. It has always been a pay and display car park but with a flat charge of £4.50 which no-one paid while waiting a few minutes to collect food.

Last July we did the same thing, not noticing any changes to the car parking signage. Unfortunately the chip shop was very busy and we were in the car park for 45 minutes. Wells in summer is very crowded and busy and the main priority is not hitting pedestrians, there is no obvious signage to draw our attention to the changes that had been introduced. I feel they should have large bright orange signs warning 'ANPR cameras in operation - you have 10 minutes to pay' (I've seen these elsewhere) The signs at the entrance are the same ones as before, just with the revised charges overpainted. There are others new ones up in the car park but not ones you can read unless you walk right up to them. I know of five family and friends that also received PCNs here last year and know there are hundreds more. They introduced a £1 evening rate after 6pm at the same time as the cameras. No-one would risk an automatic PCN via cameras for the sake of £1 - people were just not aware.

I wrote to the Harbour master explaining that I thought the signage regarding the changes was inadequate and their response was that the changes were notified on their website and FB page. I had no reason to look at either of those!

I am the registered keeper but was not driving on that day.

From reading other posts I think its confirmed that Byelaws apply here as its a port and its not 'relevant' land?? I don't fully understand the technicalities of this or how to word it and who to - do I put this to CE Ltd at this stage in an attempt to avoid it going to court - or wait and use it as a defence in court?

Do we have a defendable case here? - we didn't pay the £1. The outstanding 'debt' is currently £182 - what is it likely to go up to if they issue court papers?

Apologies for the long post and lots of questions.

Thank you in advance.

The_Deep

This is now the fourth thread I have read here about this scam. The land is subject to bye laws and, if the scammer does not know the identity of the driver, they will fail in their claim for breach of contract against the keeper.

They must surely know this by now, but persist. They must, if they claim against the keeper, ptove otbop that he/she was the driver, so never admit to it.
Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams so complain to your MP.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

busylizzy222

So do you think I should write to CE Ltd now about the Byelaws - in response to their 30 day final letter? Or wait until it goes to court?

Umkomaas

Why not read the other very recent PoW threads (as alluded to by The Deep, above) and follow advice there. We cannot type out the same information for every thread opened for almost exactly the same circumstances - tell us if your case differs and in what respect.

Do a forum search on keywords 'Port of Wells' and read up on the cases and the advice. If you feel it is inappropriate to your case, tell us why.

HOW TO USE THE FORUM SEARCH FUNCTION:

Hit your 'Back' button to get back to the forum thread list. On the bar just above the threads you'll see the 'Search' function. Click on the 'Advanced Search' button and on the following page place your keyword(s) in the 'Search By Keyword(s)' and make sure the 'Show Results As' button (at the foot of the window) is changed from 'Threads' to 'Posts'.

Coupon-mad

I now have a letter from CE Ltd saying' in accordance with Pre Action Conduct and Protocol for debt claims....final opportunity to pay'...withing 30 days. Is this a LBC?

Yes.

or should I just pay up?

No, don't be a scam victim. Such statements are unofficially banned here!

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/75456433#Comment_75456433

You have a defence and you are on a forum with 99% likelihood to win. No risk, no pain, no huge costs at stake. No CCJ as long as you do not ignore actual court letters.

Unfortunately the chip shop was very busy and we were in the car park for 45 minutes.

Oh dear, that's not good. Why would ANYONE do that and not pay & display, regardless of the old/new enforcement method?

Sitting in the car is still parking and the new rules will have been introduced because of drivers doing exactly that. Drivers like your driver, have CAUSED this new scam to be brought in, sorry to say.

That's what you will have to overcome in front of the Judge, the not paying...but you have a point here:

Wells in summer is very crowded and busy and the main priority is not hitting pedestrians, there is no obvious signage to draw our attention to the changes that had been introduced. I feel they should have large bright orange signs warning 'ANPR cameras in operation - you have 10 minutes to pay'...

I wrote to the Harbour master explaining that I thought the signage regarding the changes was inadequate and their response was that the changes were notified on their website and FB page. I had no reason to look at either of those!

We agree.

And you have another defence point here, as CEL do not always issue compliant NTKs in time or with the right wording, and it's harbour land anyway:

I am the registered keeper but was not driving on that day.

From reading other posts I think its confirmed that Byelaws apply here as its a port and its not 'relevant' land?? I don't fully understand the technicalities of this or how to word it and who to - do I put this to CE Ltd at this stage in an attempt to avoid it going to court - or wait and use it as a defence in court?

I would reply to the LBC pointing out your defence points that they failed to put signs up to inform motorists of the new restrictions and ANPR data gathering, and that the land is not 'relevant land' as defined in the POFA because it's within the Harbour Byelaws map, thus, as keeper you cannot be held liable.

Ask them if they intend to rely on the POFA (and believe this is 'relevant land') or not. That's good to get clear up front before the claim arrives.

Do we have a defendable case here?

Yes. Familiarise yourself with the POFA and 'not relevant land' argument. Read the DFT document from Sept 2012: 'Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012: Recovery of Unpaid Parking Charges' that explains it. Google it, and you will find stuff like this, as quoted by lots of posters here:

''On what type of land does Schedule 4 apply? 4.1 The provisions in Schedule 4 are intended to apply only on private land in England and Wales. Public highways are excluded as well as any parking places on public land which are either provided or controlled by a local authority (or other government body). Any land which already has statutory controls in relation to the parking of vehicles (such as byelaws applying to airports, ports and some railway station car parks) is also excluded.''

No-one would pay a penny to scammers like this, but honestly, NEVER again park on private land (that means non Council land, no special meaning) and not pay just because no-one did when fetching fish & chips.

If it's pay & display, you pay & display even if a driver or passenger is sitting in the car.

The_Deep

Bilking or not, the PPC has no cause of action against a RK unless they can prove they were the driver.

Smiggy

busylizzy222 wrote: »

I have posted previously but was advised to use a username that did not identify me, so this is a different one.

I now have a letter from CE Ltd saying' in accordance with Pre Action Conduct and Protocol for debt claims....final opportunity to pay'...withing 30 days. Is this a LBC?

This is an outline of the story. I am looking for advice on which (or all?) line of defence should I go with...or should I just pay up?

We live in Norfolk but quite a way from Wells next the sea and visit regularly but are not 'locals' Last year the Harbour car park introduced ANPR cameras. We had been using the car park for years to 'wait' while one of us went to the chip shop opposite. It has always been a pay and display car park but with a flat charge of £4.50 which no-one paid while waiting a few minutes to collect food.

Last July we did the same thing, not noticing any changes to the car parking signage. Unfortunately the chip shop was very busy and we were in the car park for 45 minutes. Wells in summer is very crowded and busy and the main priority is not hitting pedestrians, there is no obvious signage to draw our attention to the changes that had been introduced. I feel they should have large bright orange signs warning 'ANPR cameras in operation - you have 10 minutes to pay' (I've seen these elsewhere) The signs at the entrance are the same ones as before, just with the revised charges overpainted. There are others new ones up in the car park but not ones you can read unless you walk right up to them. I know of five family and friends that also received PCNs here last year and know there are hundreds more. They introduced a £1 evening rate after 6pm at the same time as the cameras. No-one would risk an automatic PCN via cameras for the sake of £1 - people were just not aware.

I wrote to the Harbour master explaining that I thought the signage regarding the changes was inadequate and their response was that the changes were notified on their website and FB page. I had no reason to look at either of those!

I am the registered keeper but was not driving on that day.

From reading other posts I think its confirmed that Byelaws apply here as its a port and its not 'relevant' land?? I don't fully understand the technicalities of this or how to word it and who to - do I put this to CE Ltd at this stage in an attempt to avoid it going to court - or wait and use it as a defence in court?

Do we have a defendable case here? - we didn't pay the £1. The outstanding 'debt' is currently £182 - what is it likely to go up to if they issue court papers?

Apologies for the long post and lots of questions.

Thank you in advance.

Hi, I have same issue as you; I parked in same car park in Wells Harbour last July (i'm sure I paid but cannot remember!). Now I have a court claim from CEL. I'm just researching before I draft my defence, so ask is the parking meter one where you put your car reg in? I cannot remember, even checking google maps shows them covered over during winter season. I've applied for SAR to CEL but not heard back yet, also the PCN I received I threw in the bin as thought these were unenforceable but remember the ANPR showing my car entering/leaving.

busylizzy222

I think I’ve seen other people say you have to put in your full reg number - and some have had a pcn because the reg was incomplete or wrong.

The signage informing changes is inadequate imo.

busylizzy222

Thanks Coupon-Mad for your detailed help.

So, is it advisable/safe to share my defence with CE Ltd now rather than wait til court? I would rather it didn't get to the court stage.

Also, is there still a time limit in which PCNs should be issued? Mine is dated as issued 36 days after the alleged crime. I received it a few days after that.


Thanks again

Fruitcake

If there was a NTD then the NTK has to arrive between days 28 and 56 for keeper liability to apply.
If there was no NTD then the NTK has to arrive by day 14.
In both cases the date of the alleged event is day zero.

Respond to the LBC stating the NTK was received too late for keeper liability to apply (if there was no NTD), and in any case since byelaws apply this is non relevant land. Thus in both instances the keeper cannot be held liable and the scammers should either cancel now or pursue only the driver, who will not be named.

You should also complain to your MP about this unregulated scam.

KeithP

busylizzy222 wrote: »

Also, is there still a time limit in which PCNs should be issued? Mine is dated as issued 36 days after the alleged crime. I received it a few days after that.

The BPA allows their members up to seven months to send out a Notice to Keeper.

However, that is too late to transfer the driver's liability to the keeper.

BPA CoP para 21.8.