Local Authority legal right to reclaim care home fees

Annieshack

Cant thank enough those who have been kind enough to reply. I may well have more questions, but this is just to say how grateful I am.

lisyloo

Ask away. I have stacks of COP forms here (I could make a table of them).

AdrianC

Annieshack wrote: »

What right do the LA have to access these funds to pay for aunties care?

She has substantial assets. So she is undoubtedly liable for the cost of her care.

The fact that the court of protection would currently need to decide anything that needs spending on her behalf, rather than the son or whoever as attorney or deputy, is a separate question.

When she dies, can they present the family with a bill for deferred fees?

Her executor, rather than "the family". But - yes, absolutely. Deferring the fees may be easier than pressing the court for a decision on sale. There may be an expectation of him paying a suitable market rent, since he is not entitled to be disregarded due to his age.

lisyloo

AdrianC wrote: »

. Deferring the fees may be easier than pressing the court for a decision on sale. There may be an expectation of him paying a suitable market rent, since he is not entitled to be disregarded due to his age.

Do you have any link or commercial experience of this?
I'd just be suprised if the LA decide to wait for payment (any longer than necessary as of course property is not liquid).

Fire_Fox

lisyloo wrote: »

I don’t understand this comment.
She has an illiquid asset (the property). LAs make arrangements for this by providing a loan whilst the property is sold, but they will expect it to go on the market. They’ll want someone to sign that Loan agreement ASAP or agree to pay the fees (so there isn’t much alternative to agreeing to the loan).

If she died before it was sold then yes the estate would have to settle the DPA but whilst she alive the LA will expect move to sell the home (we did take 6 months to get our flat to market so they were not impatient about the liquidation, but they were impatient to get agreement to the loan).

You are needlessly over-complicating my explanation. Why I simplified is emboldened.

Annieshack wrote: »

The property is tied to an equity release scheme, under which it must be sold if auntie goes into a care home permanently, something social services have agreed is necessary. There will then be about £160k left, which, as there is no LPA in place and my cousin is not the Deputy for auntie, he cannot access or authorise how it is spent.
What right do the LA have to access these funds to pay for aunties care? When she dies, can they present the family with a bill for deferred fees?
We are hoping to obtain a Disregard, but if not, we need to understand whether the LA can claw back fees.

AdrianC

Sure, they'll want paying asap. But since there's nobody who CAN order the house to be paid, short of going to the court of protection, the complication involved may well mean they wait a while. Depending on the mother's condition, it may not even add much to the timescale, given how slow the court procedure is.

Fire_Fox

AdrianC wrote: »

Her executor, rather than "the family". But - yes, absolutely. Deferring the fees may be easier than pressing the court for a decision on sale. There may be an expectation of him paying a suitable market rent, since he is not entitled to be disregarded due to his age.

That does not appear to be an option.

Annieshack wrote: »

The property is tied to an equity release scheme, under which it must be sold if auntie goes into a care home permanently, something social services have agreed is necessary. There will then be about £160k left, which, as there is no LPA in place and my cousin is not the Deputy for auntie, he cannot access or authorise how it is spent.

AdrianC

Sorry, yes. I was just thinking in terms of the LA for the care costs, and forgetting the ERS.

lisyloo

AdrianC wrote: »

Sure, they'll want paying asap. But since there's nobody who CAN order the house to be paid, short of going to the court of protection, the complication involved may well mean they wait a while. Depending on the mother's condition, it may not even add much to the timescale, given how slow the court procedure is.

Someone can start COP and it can happen within say about 6 months.
It's actually quite a challenge to sell a property within that timescale.



As I said I started marketing the house before the court order arrived.
I instructed a solicitor and estate agent (all signed "as agent") without the COP.
All parties including a chain of 3 buyers were willing to progress the chain without the court order in place (due dilligence was done to make sure I had actually applied i.e. copy of application provided)

We would not have been able to proceed to exchange of contracts without the court order but it's generally at least 3-4 months to get to that stage.



She could die within the 6 months its possible but she could live many years also. There are people (exceptions) who stay in nursing homes for 15 years.


To clarify are you saying the LA would just wait for their money? (presumably in this case the ERS will not).


FYI: People are looked after very well in homes in terms of hygiene, food, water, medical attention (immediate if a nursing home). My MIL had lots of UTI (urinary tract infections) before she went into a home and was not eating or drinking properly, partly due to mobility difficulties but also she has lost the capacity to make decision. She has been in a nursing home for 21 months now and has had only 1 UTI and no colds during that time, because the hygiene, food and water situation is massively improved. If she acts confused the nurses will check her urine straight away for infection, so she will get immediate medical attention.
What I'm saying is that some individual last a long time in this environment where they are protection from falls, infection, dehydration etc. even if they have lost all capacity and mobility.

Annieshack

Another cousin is helping my aunties son with this situation, I have passed on your kind insights. We are a bit nonplussed by the LA communication and processes so far. My aunties son is struggling with this situation but we are surprised he does not seem to have been given a copy of aunt's health needs assessment, which he thinks he signed about a month ago. His sister dealt with her mums finances but she was diagnosed with a brain tumour a year ago and has been too ill to be consulted. She died at about the same time as aunt needed to go into hospital after a collapse.
We have, however, obtained at speed all financial information as requested in order to proceed with the financial assessment, within a few days of being asked by the LA.
It is now two weeks since we supplied the financial info they need, in order to assess who would pay what. In the interim, auntie has had a successful assessment for a care home she would be happy in. But we don't understand how the LA can ask us to say yes to the place potentially available when we have had no copies of any assessments for health or finances? This is what they seem to expect. Can you shed any light on this, please?