Pcn

goatshed

They were not interested. Just kept saying it was nothing to do with them.

I replied to them saying it was wrong and would give them a bad name and they did not even respond

goatshed

Appeal reply

Having carefully considered the evidence provided by you we have decided to reject your appeal for
the following reasons:
the car park is operated by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR).
Cameras capture an image of vehicles entering and leaving the car park and calculate their
length of stay on site.
When purchasing a pay and display ticket, you must enter the correct vehicle registration
number (VRM) and this information is directed to the camera system.
I can confirm that no pay and display ticket matching your VRM was purchased at the time of
the terms and conditions.
On entry to private land it is the responsibility of the driver to check for signage and ensure
that your vehicle has been correctly parked. Any vehicles found not adhering to the signage
will be issued with a parking charge notice (PCN).
Please be advised that there are a number of signs around the car park indicating the
restrictions of the site and it is the responsibility of the driver to read them when parking.
The signage is clear, a valid pay and display ticket must be purchased for the full duration of
your stay on the car park.
Euro Car Parks do not need to provide evidence of who was driving the vehicle, it is the
registered keeper’s responsibility to inform of the full name and address within 28 days
beginning with the day after the notice was given. If the full amount remains unpaid, under
Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (‘the Act’), Euro Car Parks have the right
subject of the Act to recover from the keeper of the vehicle at the time it was parked so much
of that amount which remains unpaid.
The Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) does not alter the principle of driver liability. What
it does do, is to allow proceedings against the registered keeper for unpaid parking charges
when the landowner or their agent, the parking operator does not know who the driver was
at the time.
We note that in your letter you state that the parking charge notice (PCN) is not enforceable
as you have currently not entered into a ‘contract’ with Euro Car Parks. I would respectfully
remind that contract law applies in this instance.
he car park is private property and signage on entrance and within the private car park
clearly set out the rules and regulations of the car park and tariffs (if applicable). By entering
the car park, parking and leaving the vehicle the driver has accepted the ‘contract’ and
therefore if the driver fail to comply with the terms and conditions a parking charge notice will
be correctly issued.
ANPR capture is complete in the infrared domain and does not use the colour overview to
determine the vehicle registration mark. The infrared image is where all algorithms are
complete to process the number plate recognition. This is the image that is checked against
for correct capture when Euro Car Parks complete the manual checking process. The colour
overview acts as an added evidential record and is just added supporting evidence.
The overview image is taken at the exact same time the infrared image is taken and although
the image is dark due to the headlights we can be sure that the vehicle with the matching
plate was at the site at that time. The police use exactly the same technology (we use CA
Traffic) to act as evidence in a court of law during the day or night due to the way that the
technology operates. Euro Car Parks use National ACPO ANPR Standards (NAAS) ANPR
standard cameras that have been approved by ACPO for these exact reasons so that we can
enforce at night time.
I can confirm the parking charge notice was issued correctly and remains payable

goatshed

ah ha.....

Finally managed it. Copied all text into a word processor and removed as much formatting as poss and changed the font. seems to have worked. So, if I'm not out of time already I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas.
Thanks for helping

Coupon-mad

It's ECP so why did your appeal copy this and leave it as a different company?

Civil Enforcement has no reason to contact

---

Garage Limited again regarding this PCN.

Doesn't matter anyway, as you are now at POPLA stage and rather than post on this thread for us to repeat what's already findable on the forum, you merely need to copy an appeal from this year when you search for:

hirer POPLA

Someone has already done what you need, and all newbies need to do is search.

waamo

Try the head office of the supermarket concerned. Go to the top. The organ grinder is always better than the local monkey.

goatshed

Hi folks
I went back to newbies as suggested and put together a POPLA appeal which I only just managed to get in on time so did not post and which I do not have access to at present as I am away from home so cannot print here, apologies. POPLA have come back to me and presented ECP's response to my POPLA appeal which is laid out below. In addition to what is below they have presented photos of signage and a scan of Appendix A from the BPA code of practice and a scan of the 'Authorisation Instructions' from M&S. The driver uses this car park every week and at least one of the signs shown is new has only been present after the PCN was issued. In addition you can see on the entrance sign that there is considerable fine print at the bottom under the larger print. They have also included a list of edited number plates that payments were made on at the time in question and one of them is showing the erroneous number plate entry. This does, however, at least indicate payment was made.
I know it has made it hard without me being able to show you the popla appeal but I just wondered if there was anything still obvious that I should do. I have at no point told anyone who was driving and they are adamant that it does not matter and seem to suggest they will claim off the garage i had the courtesy car from even though they are dealing with me.

Thanks for any help you can give.

Below is the info sent to me by POPLA.

3. Registered Keeper details and Liability Trail
As the car park is camera controlled the vehicle details were forwarded to the DVLA to obtain the
registered keepers details. The DVLA had provided the following details as the registered keeper:
.......................... GARAGE LTD
....................................
...............................
LONDON

Mr ........................... then appealed the PCN and then appealed the PCN and declined to provide
the details of the driver on the day in question. As no other details have been provided, the
liability for the notice remains with ............. GARAGE LTD as the registered keeper
of the vehicle.
Our PCN (Parking Charge Notice) is the first communication with the registered keeper – this is referred
to as the Notice to Keeper or Notice to Owner
The PCN (NTK/NTO) has been checked by both the BPA and the IPC and we have confirmation
that our PCN (NTK/NTO) and has been approved as compliant with POFA
The PCN (NTK/NTO) has been checked by Gladstones Solicitors who specialise in assisting
private car park operators – legal advice and pre legal advice with regards signage and adhering
to POFA and both code of practice
Please be advised once the registered keeper has been sent the PCN (NTK/NTO) if there is no
response, payment, appeal, serviceable address of the driver – ECP process a Notice To Keeper – this
is a “reminder letter” and sent in reference to the PCN (NTK/NTO) that has not been responded to.
If we are in receipt of a serviceable address of the driver – the PCN (NTK/NTO) is re-issued
If the registered keeper is in receipt of the PCN (NTK/NTO) and has passed to the driver and the driver
appeals – we will respond to the appeal strictly following the code and ensure any/all communication is
sent to the driver (we would not at this stage re-issue the PCN)
We have been advised that the above is standard practice for all private car park operators in regards
to PCN (NTK/NTO) issued on Automatic Number Plate Recognition car parks


6. ECP response to POPLA appeal logged by Mr ....... .........
This location is managed by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) technology which
takes a picture of the vehicle entering and exiting the site, these pictures are timed and therefore
the duration of the stay can be calculated. All vehicle registration numbers are then matched
against the data produced by the various means of paying for parking and a list of registration
numbers where no payment has been made or where the motorist has stayed longer than the
period paid is produced. After requesting vehicle keeper details from the DVLA, a Notice to
keeper is sent to the keepers of the vehicles on this list. As a consequence at ANPR locations
there will be no PCN issued to the windscreen neither will there be photographic evidence of
the windscreen supplied in operator evidence packs.
Parking Charge Notice ................ was issued to vehicle ........ for breach of terms and
conditions: No valid pay and display/permit was purchased at Marks & Spencer - Eltham. This car
park operates an ANPR + P&D operation, therefore all vehicles are required to purchase a valid ticket
for the full duration of stay within the car park.
Statement: poor signage, text size of signage, consumer contract,
Euro Car Parks can confirm the following:
• Section 18.3 of the British Parking Association’s (BPA) code of practice explains that signs
“must be conspicuous and legible and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to
see, read and understand.
• Signage on site is clear, when parking on private land it is the driver’s responsibility to
read the signage displayed and parked accordance with the terms and conditions as
stated.
• Euro Car Parks have provided photographic evidence showing that the appellant
remained at the site for 48 minutes (Figure 1)
• Signage is visible when entering and inside of the car park and when entering private
land it would be the driver’s responsibilty to read the terms and conditions and adhere
to them. (Figure 2 – See Section 7).
• Below is the transaction report of payments; there are no transactions matching
...............:
Drivers details have been censored due to Data Protection
• According to BPA Code of Practise 13.4 – car park operators should allow the driver a
reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended;
14 No Pay & Display
before enforcement action is taken. If the location is one where parking is normally
permitted; the grace period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10
minutes.
• Figure 3 confirms that the NTK is PoFA compliant.
• Any form of parking ticket or ‘notice’ is issued under the law ‘of trespass and Contract Law’. A
driver who is invited (or chooses) to park on private land and use the car parking facilities and
pays a fee/s does so under a contract (signage) with the car park operator. The parking contract
sets out the terms that apply to the parking service, including the price.
• The contract (signage) clearly states the extra charges are that the driver will incur and have to
pay if they decide to break the contract terms − for example, by parking longer than the time
paid for or exceeding the maximum time limit applicable.
• Automatic Number Plate Recognition systems are effectively image processing and microprocessor devices with an internal reference clock based around a set of components referred
to as the ‘Real Time Clock chipset’ or RTC. The chipset uses a quartz crystal reference source
and will provide a reliable time reference dependant on a drift characteristic determined by
variations in local camera temperature. High fluctuations in local ambient can cause the RTC
to drift as much as 30 seconds a month and to counteract this an NTP server is utilised. The
NTP server is effectively a computer situated in a control room and takes a reference time
source from a GPS satellite and provides a hyper accurate time reference. All camera systems
operated by ECP are configured to request a time synchronisation from the NTP on a sixty
second basis. This ensures that all cameras have a universal time reference which is accurate
to a few thousandths of a second. Cameras also report a ‘heartbeat’ to our back office
environment, again on a sixty second basis, and this is used to establish camera operation;
logs of these transactions from all cameras are retained for approximately six months. On
capture of an ANPR read this is transmitted to a similar back office environment where the time
difference between that tagged on the raw capture and the ‘real time’ of the servers is again
tested.
• All ANPR cameras used by ECP are compliant under the home office approval framework as
stated under NAAS/NASP.
• Figure 4 shows the contract between ECP and Marks & Spencer – Eltham.

Fruitcake

It is difficult to comment as we have not seen what you put in your PoPLA appeal.

Did you appeal as hirer, as advised previously by C-m? Most PPCs are incapable of getting the right paperwork to the hirer and therefore it is very, very rare for a motorist to lose at PoPLA when appealing as hirer/lessor.

You now need to rebut each and every point made by the scammers. If you appealed as hirer, you state that they have failed to comply with the PoFA, pointing ot why.

Rebut the signage. If you can prove a sign has been added after the alleged event, then use that and also complain to the BPA and DVLA that ECP are being devious.
Point out the sign with the small print breaches the BPA CoP and is disimilar to the Beavis signs, which you no doubt included in your original PoPLA appeal by including the long Inadequate Signage point.

Who owns the land? Is it actually M & S? Do the signatures on the parking contact meet the requirements mentioned in this thread?

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5772224/motorists-2-ppcs-0