UKPC installed new signs since my appeal

Absydian

Hi everyone, thanks for providing this great forum, I was wondering if someone could guide me in the right direction for my appeal.

I have appealed the NTK through the UKPC online appeals form and, after 32 days, it was rejected and I now have POPLA number, which I intend use to appeal the 'fine'. I am in the process of drafting out my POPLA appeal, but when I returned to the car park to gather photographic evidence of the poor signage, I was shocked to find that several new signs have now been installed, and the insufficient signage was going to be the main basis of my claim.

Background;
On 14th March, I went to a shop situated in a corner of a large Retail park to pick up my sister. I was a little bit early and, in total, ended up staying about 15 minutes in a parking bay close to the entrance of the shop. There is plenty of signage around the Retail park that clearly states that parking was up to a maximum of 3 hours, so I didn't think that this would be a problem. I didn't have any reason to assume that the bay I was parked in was any different to all the other spaces in the retail park.

I then received a letter dated 15th April stating that the area that I had parked in was for "registered users only". The letter claims that they had wrote to me previously about the parking charge, but I didn't receive this letter. I responded by going on to their website and appealing the fine, on 18th April, using the "one-size fits all" template for first appeal that I found on this forum.

I found a letter from UKPC, dated 20th May, rejecting the claim, giving me the POPLA number. So I went back to the site yesterday to gather some photographic evidence, but was shocked to find that there now was several new signs making it clearer about the parking restrictions.

I don't have any recent photos of what the site looked like on the day I visited, but I looked at their FB account and 4 of the 5 top comments are of people complaining about receiving parking tickets after visiting this place, dated within the last month, each one with several replies from even more people ranting about tickets that they have received.

I've read a number of POPLA claims from this forum and I think I am ready to send my POPLA appeal, but before I do, are any of the following arguments relevant?

I did not receive the 'first' letter that they claimed to have sent out. Reading the BPA code of practice, does this mean that by claiming to have sent out a letter, then waiting 28 days, it gives them the right to pursue the charges from me as the keeper? Also, I didn't receive a letter within 14 days of the event, the first letter that I did receive mentions an earlier letter, but how can I prove that I didn't get a piece of post. Is their fine void if they never sent it?

It took 32 days for them to respond to my appeal. Its my first parking charge, so I don't know how long the turnaround usually is, but doesn't the BPA say that they should respond within 14 days, even if it is just an acknowledgement of the appeal? Also, I received the letter on day 36 after my appeal, reading the BPA code of practice, shouldn't they have reached a decision before this date? The letter was dated 20th May, but the code of practice says they need to allow 2 working days for letters sent by post. I feel like they took as long as possible to send their correspondence out, to buy themselves time to finish installing the new signs, but I don't know if any of these are valid points, or if its just me being cynical.

Should I include screenshots of the Facebook account of the store, that clearly shows that a large number of people have had the same issue that I have had?

Also, a 100 pound fine for 15 minutes parking seems excessive. Do I have a case that the amount of the charge is disproportionate to the loss caused? Even with the new signage, I still don't know what "registered users only" means. Is this bay reserved for staff, or customers who register their number plate inside the store? Does it make a difference if I'm appealing the disproportionate charge?

Obviously, I am still going to claim the the signage was misleading and insufficient, but since they have now installed a number of new signs, is it up to me to prove that the signs weren't there on the date in question? How do I argue this point now? I think that by installing new signs, they are admitting that the signage at the time was not fit for purpose.

Any help or guidance you can give me will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again.

PS. I've just previewed this post and I'm sorry its so long, I'm trying to think of as many relevant angles as possible, because I read on one of the posts that the longer the better.

The_Deep

UKPC are fraudsters, read this

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11858473/Parking-firm-UKPC-admits-faking-tickets-to-fine-drivers.html

They will have to send you copies of the old signs if they wish to pursue this, hit them with a subject access request.

Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams so complain to your MP.

Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.

MistyZ

Hi there,

you should be able to find the car park & therefore the previous signs on Google Earth. Capture screenshots & embed them in the appeal in order to make your point about change of signage. You don't need to prove your case, it's up to UKPC to disprove it.

No Genuine Pre-Estimate of Loss is long gone since Beavis so there's no point in mentioning the disproportionate charge, disproportionate as it may be.

I don't know what they mean by registered users only, though presumably the shop served by the parking spaces will know, so ask them (and don't allow yourself to be fobbed off). I can see that you do need this information.

Use all relevant points in the POPLA appeal, including landowner authority and indeed, Grace Periods.

fisherjim

Absydian wrote: »

Also, a 100 pound fine for 15 minutes parking seems excessive. Do I have a case that the amount of the charge is disproportionate to the loss caused?

Not a chance I'm afraid the Beavis case threw that argument (though rational people agree) out of the window.

Absydian wrote: »

I found a letter from UKPC, dated 20th May, rejecting the claim, giving me the POPLA number. So I went back to the site yesterday to gather some photographic evidence, but was shocked to find that there now was several new signs making it clearer about the parking restrictions.

I don't have any recent photos of what the site looked like on the day I visited, but I looked at their FB account and 4 of the 5 top comments are of people complaining about receiving parking tickets after visiting this place, dated within the last month, each one with several replies from even more people ranting about tickets that they have received.

Obviously, I am still going to claim the the signage was misleading and insufficient, but since they have now installed a number of new signs, is it up to me to prove that the signs weren't there on the date in question? How do I argue this point now? I think that by installing new signs, they are admitting that the signage at the time was not fit for purpose.

Pity you didn't get the photos sooner, of course you must use signage arguments.


State that the signs weren't there and demand evidence from them through POPLA as to when the signs were changed.


Also any discussions with people on site that will support your claims.

Absydian wrote: »

I didn't receive a letter within 14 days of the event

If they are claiming as I would suspect that a window PCN was left on the car this rule does not apply.


Also it is not a fine, as TD states UKPC are proven disgusting liars, and their muppet attendants have been caught in the past falsifying evidence for their incentivised bonus.

Coupon-mad

when I returned to the car park to gather photographic evidence of the poor signage, I was shocked to find that several new signs have now been installed,

For POPLA I always screenshot UKPC's own blurry pics from their website ''view photos''!

Fruitcake

If all else fails, you aver that the signs there now were not there on the date of the alleged event. You demand to see contemporary pictures from the site at the date of the alleged event, not the signs now that you aver have been installed since.

Visit the site and see of you can find someone who is willing to state that the signs were changed, and when.

forgotmyname

Didn't see the option to view UKPC's photo's with my appeal. But they did supply some really old photo's of the signs around the carpark.

One to watch for. Can you get google streetview images? There is an option to show older pictures worth a look.

Complete building missing in one of my photo's

Coupon-mad

UKPC have had that option online for years. Very useful for POPLA illustrations!

Absydian

Hi Everyone, I just wanted to say a big 'Thank You' for everyone who takes the time to run this forum and help out people like me when in need.

So I submitted my POPLA appeal through their website a few weeks ago and yesterday I heard that UKPC were not going to contest the appeal.

I had to limit my appeal to 2000 characters, but, using my own words (the POPLA website was clear that I had to do that), I explained the confusing layout of the car park, with the aid of a birds-eye view of the park from google maps, and I also used another image from google maps (that was almost a year old!) that showed no adequate signage on the car park, or the entrance. I also included a link to the FB page of the store that the car park is right next to and pointed out the numerous complaints that multiple people were having.

Obviously, UKPC couldn't prove that there were signs there on the day I used the car park, so they decided not to contest it (although it took them almost 3 weeks to reach this decision).

Thanks again to everyone who helps out on this forum; I wouldn't have had the confidence to stand up to this company without your help, so I thought returning here to give you all the conclusion to my story, was the least you deserved, just on the off-chance that someone else finds themselves in a similar position and reading this helps them out.

Umkomaas

I had to limit my appeal to 2000 characters

If you had constructed your appeal in Word (or similar word processing programme), converted to a pdf file, then attached it to the POPLA appeal portal, there would be no restrictions on words/characters.

No worries now, you've won. Well done :T

KeithP

Whilst it is very good to hear that you appeal has been resolved in your favour, one thing needs to be pointed out for anyone else reading this from scratch.

PoPLA appeals do not need to be limited to 2000 characters.

Post #3 of the NEWBIES thread explains:

These then get saved as PDFs and uploaded to POPLA under OTHER (ONLY) - do not think you only have 2000 characters in some box on the POPLA wepage!

Again, well done on winning.