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Deprivation of assets

edited 30 November -1 at 12:00AM in Marriage, Relationships & Families
85 replies 4.8K views
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  • AnotherJoeAnotherJoe Forumite
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    So here’s a scenario, you’ve lived for 4 or 5 years in an £800 a week care home paying for it yourself out of your savings, pension income and the proceeds from selling your home.

    You live longer than you expected and eventually you are down to 26,000 in capital.

    If you have a well off child or other relative then the council will pay their rate (let’s say £500) happily and let your well off relative pay £300 and you get to stay where you are, where you have made friends, where the staff know you, your home.

    If you don’t have any family, or they can’t afford to help you, then the council are no longer willing to pay the £500 they would have been?

    But according to what you just wrote, you do have family, the " well off child or other relative" who IS paying the top up.

    I suspect if they stopped paying and you began paying from your own £26k, the care home would start proceedings to get the council to reallocate but they wont be in a rush, after all they are being paid.

    Of course there are ways to game the system, you could transfer money to relative and have relative pay as before then no one would be the wiser until you literally ran out of money.

    I dont know what guarantees the relatives have to make regards top up payments, I would imagine its a commitment to pay for a reasonable period of time,maybe a year or so?
  • lisyloolisyloo Forumite
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    Just to add something I’ve remembered.

    In the two cases I’ve been involved in (MiL & FIL) both went into places outside the LA budget being LA/taxpayer funded.

    In the first case (MIL) her needs were high and a lot of places wouldn’t take her. The family refused some places in the overmydeadbody category and yes you DO get a choice and also places too far away.
    We found somewhere suitable and went to “panel” with strong advocacy.
    We won MILs case which I think was partly because she was bed blocking in hospital and LA can be fined for that so they didn’t want a protracted argument, plus I think the home lowered their rates as they knew what the max amount they could get without being refused.

    The second case was FIL. They had been married for 60 years and the LA wanted to split them up to save money (he was bed bound, her wheelchair so transport quite difficult).
    Again we went to panel and we got him into the same home.
    Once again the home lowered their rates and the LA were under pressure to move him from hospital.

    So it is not a given that you HAVE to take the LA budget accommodation.
    There are appeals that can be made if there are needs, family, marriages etc to take into account.

    We did later discover that the rates went up significantly and it’s at that point we realised the home had dropped their rates to get them in.

    So LA rates £620 ex nursing.
    Mil residential rate £825 ex nursing
    FIL rates £850 ex nursing
    Private rate £925 eX nursing.

    So it is possible to get LA funded in better places but you need strong advocacy. Won’t work for people with no family.
  • lisyloolisyloo Forumite
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    AnotherJoe wrote: »
    I dont know what guarantees the relatives have to make regards top up payments, I would imagine its a commitment to pay for a reasonable period of time,maybe a year or so?

    I believe this is indefinite that you sign up to.
    Clearly there are no guarantees in life but proof of income similar to mortgage would suffice.

    We had to say no to this indefinite commitment as we have multiple parents.
  • MalthusianMalthusian Forumite
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    elsien wrote: »
    It's only a few years back that there were proposals to raise the means test from £23,250 to £123,000. People are very attached to their properties and handing down an inheritance, whatever your personal opinions with regards to this.

    Thing is, if you hypothetically have £123,000 in the bank, and in the final years of your life the Government spends £123,000 on later-life housing benefit for you because your own £123,000 is ringfenced from the means test, and you then die, then you haven't left any inheritance. The taxpayer has bequeathed your kids a £123,000 bung for being middle-class.

    Not trying to start an argument (I know you're not advocating this), just bringing some clarity.
  • Gavin83Gavin83 Forumite
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    But the link posted earlier explicitly states that you are not allowed to pay your own top up fees, so where does your information come from that this rule (law?) is broken regularly?

    I used to work in this area.
    lisyloo wrote: »
    Just to add something I’ve remembered.

    In the two cases I’ve been involved in (MiL & FIL) both went into places outside the LA budget being LA/taxpayer funded.

    In the first case (MIL) her needs were high and a lot of places wouldn’t take her. The family refused some places in the overmydeadbody category and yes you DO get a choice and also places too far away.
    We found somewhere suitable and went to “panel” with strong advocacy.
    We won MILs case which I think was partly because she was bed blocking in hospital and LA can be fined for that so they didn’t want a protracted argument, plus I think the home lowered their rates as they knew what the max amount they could get without being refused.

    The second case was FIL. They had been married for 60 years and the LA wanted to split them up to save money (he was bed bound, her wheelchair so transport quite difficult).
    Again we went to panel and we got him into the same home.
    Once again the home lowered their rates and the LA were under pressure to move him from hospital.

    So it is not a given that you HAVE to take the LA budget accommodation.
    There are appeals that can be made if there are needs, family, marriages etc to take into account.

    We did later discover that the rates went up significantly and it’s at that point we realised the home had dropped their rates to get them in.

    So LA rates £620 ex nursing.
    Mil residential rate £825 ex nursing
    FIL rates £850 ex nursing
    Private rate £925 eX nursing.

    So it is possible to get LA funded in better places but you need strong advocacy. Won’t work for people with no family.

    Either the home accepted the council rate (which is certainly possible if they need a room occupied) or you had a very generous LA. The above certainly wouldn't qualify for extended funding in most LAs.

    One of the only ways to get the top up fees paid by the council is if the only homes which can cater to the individuals needs require it. This doesn't include homes the family have refused.

    Honestly, if they don't have the money to self fund and the family won't/can't pay a top up fee then yes, the choice normally doesn't exist. Certainly in the LA I worked for your MIL would have been placed in one of those 'over my dead body' homes.

    You are right that the LA doesn't want the individual to bed block and they can be fined. In all honesty the situation where the family refused all options (such as the above) actually wasn't all that common. In such situations the choice was ultimately taken out of the families hand and the LA placed them in a home of their choice. I believe in some situations they even had the PoA revoked as it was deemed the family member wasn't acting in the best interests of the resident.

    Consider yourself lucky.
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