Flue Installed after Extension - Council Want to Remove!

field1990

I am wondering if anyone has had this issue before.

We recently completed an extension under building control and has been completed and signed off.

Following completion of the extension, we decided to install a wood burner in the property which happened to be in the new part of the house (the back of the house) as it was less disruptive to our neighbours as it could not been seen from the road rather than central to the room which would have been to the side of the house. Our neighbour (who has complained already about the extension and now complained to the council about this...he complains about everything we do even though has not affected him at all).

We believed this was permitted under General Permitted Development 2015, Schedule 2 Class G permissions for a dwelling house. We had never added any details to the extension plans as it was never our intention to get one. However, we have recently been contacted by the council whereby they have confirmed that the wood burner has been installed under General Permitted Development 2015, Schedule 2 A.1 (k) (iii) and therefore in breach and have asked us to submit planning permission for this (which is likely to not be approved) and therefore will need to be moved approximately 0.7metres to the previously “existing” part of the home. As you can imagine, ive felt sick ever since I have had this letter, we literally spent all our last savings to get this work done.

However, I feel that as the extension has been completed and signed off it should now be considered part of the "existing" dwellinghouse for this further development of installing a log burner/flue.

Many thanks,

unforeseen

Unless I'm reading the legislation wrong, installation of a flue doesn't fall under GPD anyway.

field1990

Thanks Unforseen!

From looking online it says as long as the flue doesn't exceed the height restrictions etc under Class G you can install a flue on a dwellinghouse without permission - which it doesnt.

And technically our extension is now part of the dwellinghouse as it was completed some time ago. I have been trying to get hold of our architect but to no avail!

Doozergirl

Technically, your extension isn't part of the original dwelling house at all. It isn't afforded permitted development rights of its own but flues are usually PD as no one really wants to concern themselves with trifling things.

Building Control is not the same as Planning. Planning don't sign off anything, you're just required to build within the terms of your planning permission - or permitted development. Sign off from Building Control means nothing to the Planning Department.

Is the flue at the back? Are you in a conservation area?

Did you build under PD or with planning permission?

Have they written to tell you *exactly* what the problem is?

Even if they do demand ask you to move it, it might be that you can get away with adding a swans neck to the flue which keeps the stove in the same place but moves the top, visible part of the flue over to where it should be.

It's hard to say much else without any details of the house and the flue, but you need to interpret the rules correctly, rather than diverting over BC sign off.

Hopefully your architect can shed some better light for you.

field1990

Right I see, I am totally not sure. Our extension is under PD as was only 1.2m out and 10 metres wide (whole length of the house). So as the extension never needed planning permission does that mean it will never be part of the dwellinghouse.

The letter basically said remove it or apply for planning but likely to be rejected. I called and spoke to the planning guy and he laughed and was like oh this happens all the time as the architects and hetas installers dont know this section of the schedule...!

I think what is confusing us is that if we had built the flue within our existing house (from reading online) it would have been fine, even though it would have been up the whole side of the house and closer to our neighbour (we are detached). We done it at the back so that it wouldnt show from the road.

Although the burner is 0.7metres away from the "existing house part of the room" we wouldnt be able to get a bend on the flue that far to touch the orignal old house. The flue is going straight up the extension and fixed to the existing house by metal beams as such - which the installer confirmed was normal! Yes the flue is at the back and isn't facing anyones front of home and not in a conservation area.

I think we may just need to pay another architect to help us interpret the rules if that is the case - our one isnt answering us!

Thanks for your help though!

Doozergirl

You could join the Planning Jungle website which would be cheaper than an architect.

The website deals specifically with Permitted Development issues and they have a forum, IIRC, where you could ask about it.

Different councils interpret the GDPO rules differently, hence the website exists to help navigate the muddy bits. They have examples of appeals that have been allowed/dismissed in order to set precedent and clarify what the rules actually are.

On the face of it, I agree with you that Class G is separate to the other classes and so allows for the installation of a flue on the rear elevation of any house as long as it doesn't go higher than 1m over the highest part of the roof.

It's not the longest part of the document!

field1990

Ah thank you, I will give that a go!

Thansk so much for your help.

Newuser1987

This is quite a blurry one!

Essentially the council have said your extension is not permitted development because of the flue. They are not saying the flue is not permitted development. Which strictly speaking is true as there is a requirement under the extension section of permitted development does not allow flues:
A.1.K (iii) the installation, alteration or replacement of a chimney, flue or soil and vent pipe,

However the flue itself likely does comply with Part G. The dwellinghouse does include the extension as the word 'existing' is not used in the criteria.

I would advise firstly responding to the councils letter making reference to page 8 of the technical guidance for permitted development which states the following:
When considering whether a development proposal is permitted development, all of the
relevant Parts of the rules and all the Classes within those Parts need to be taken into
account. For example Part 1 Class A prevents the installation, alteration or replacement of
a chimney, flue or soil and vent pipe from being permitted development because these
works are specifically provided for in Class G subject to the rules set out under that Class.
Similarly, changes to the roof of a house are not permitted development under Class A,
but may be permitted development under Class B or C.

This shows that Class G can be used concurrently with Class A.

Unfortunately from experience every council interpret the rules differently. So if they still contest this you will need to submit a Certificate of Lawfulness application. It would then be refused. You can then appeal this where it should be overturned. If it is not overturned you can then try a retrospective planning application. If again refused you can appeal this. Only then if the appeal fails will you need to consider moving the flue.

So you have a couple of years before needing to physically move it - if it came to it!

You will need to ensure you complied with Part G of course:
G.1 Development is not permitted by Class G if—
(a) permission to use the dwellinghouse as a dwellinghouse has been granted only by virtue
of Class M, N, P or Q of Part 3 of this Schedule (changes of use);
(b) the height of the chimney, flue or soil and vent pipe would exceed the highest part of the
roof by 1 metre or more; or
(c) in the case of a dwellinghouse on article 2(3) land, the chimney, flue or soil and vent pipe
would be installed on a wall or roof slope which—
(i) fronts a highway, and
(ii) forms either the principal elevation or a side elevation of the dwellinghouse.

Doozergirl

Yes, newuser, that's what I was trying to say in my last post, but you said it way better

field1990

Thanks newuser. Yes that is what we were trying to contest is that it complies with G. Hopefully they will see common sense as moving the log burner 0.7m will just mean its at the side of the house rather than the back (as we have extended the whole back of the house) so the flue will be closer to the neighbours house and will be seen from the road, which we had beared in mind when installing.

Fire_Fox

field1990 wrote: »

The letter basically said remove it or apply for planning but likely to be rejected. I called and spoke to the planning guy and he laughed and was like oh this happens all the time as the architects and hetas installers dont know this section of the schedule...!

I think what is confusing us is that if we had built the flue within our existing house (from reading online) it would have been fine, even though it would have been up the whole side of the house and closer to our neighbour (we are detached). We done it at the back so that it wouldnt show from the road.

Although the burner is 0.7metres away from the "existing house part of the room" we wouldnt be able to get a bend on the flue that far to touch the orignal old house. The flue is going straight up the extension and fixed to the existing house by metal beams as such - which the installer confirmed was normal! Yes the flue is at the back and isn't facing anyones front of home and not in a conservation area.

I think we may just need to pay another architect to help us interpret the rules if that is the case - our one isnt answering us!

Thanks for your help though!

Welcome to MSE.

The specifics/ exact wording of the letter and the regulations is important. Wherever possible form a paper trail (letter or e-mail) rather than telephoning.