Identifying the witnesses of a Will

Tom99

Keep_pedalling wrote: »

It is not actually necessary to provide a date the signatures or even date the will at all, although you should, but just a couple of unreadable signatures is a major problem. If the witnesses can’t be identified then any challenge to the will is almost certainly going to succeed.

Whilst no date might not make the will actually invalid, it can cause all sorts of problems. My brother had a perfectly valid will, but he had not dated it. In order for probate to be granted the two witnesses had to be trace and since these were old work mates, one of whom had moved abroad, it all took some time to sort out.

Yorkshireman99

Tom99 wrote: »

Whilst no date might not make the will actually invalid, it can cause all sorts of problems. My brother had a perfectly valid will, but he had not dated it. In order for probate to be granted the two witnesses had to be trace and since these were old work mates, one of whom had moved abroad, it all took some time to sort out.

Thank you. In practical terms it really is essential since not doing so may make it difficult, or even impossible to trace the witnesses. That is w75 for all practical purposes crucial regardless of what the law may say. No solicitor would dream of letting a client sign and get witnessed with names and addresses. That is the reality not theory. To suggest otherwise is stupid and unhelpful.

Keep_pedalling

Yorkshireman99 wrote: »

Thank you. In practical terms it really is essential since not doing so may make it difficult, or even impossible to trace the witnesses. That is w75 for all practical purposes crucial regardless of what the law may sayhgg

Can’t disagree with that. I do know someone who witnessed a will and had to go to court when the will was challenged.

I think the law is probable deliberately not that prescriptive, to prevent many more challenges on purely technical grounds happening. I suspect that there are many such wills out there that are followed without issue because the testator’s family are happy to stick with his or her wishes rather than fight over the spoils.

In the not too distant past working class people did not get wills written up by solicitors, they just made do with a DIY job, which in many cases was nothing more than a letter of wishes. During WW1 soldiers made very basic wills which they either wrote as part of a letter home or was written in a page in their pay books. These were not even witnessed.

Yorkshireman99

Keep_pedalling wrote: »

Can’t disagree with that. I do know someone who witnessed a will and had to go to court when the will was challenged.

I think the law is probable deliberately not that prescriptive, to prevent many more challenges on purely technical grounds happening. I suspect that there are many such wills out there that are followed without issue because the testator’s family are happy to stick with his or her wishes rather than fight over the spoils.

In the not too distant past working class people did not get wills written up by solicitors, they just made do with a DIY job, which in many cases was nothing more than a letter of wishes. During WW1 soldiers made very basic wills which they either wrote as part of a letter home or was written in a page in their pay books. These were not even witnessed.

Forces wills are a different matter altogether., informal wills are allowed by soldiers. The difficulty is that much of the details of more obscure parts of law are not readily available on line. Textbooks on specific areas.can be very costly and hard to access. Lots of things are not widely known about. Others are so well known nobody normally ever queries them. The current topic is pne of them.

AnotherJoe

My late mum added a codicil to her will, we were advised by her solicitor that it was invalid because it just had signatures and dates and no address for the witnesses (as a further complication we couldn't decipher the signatures but if they were who we thought they were, they were all dead ! - she had got a couple of her chums in the old people's home to sign )
Luckily all of us were happy to go along with the codicil but could have been nasty if there was one recipient of the will who challenged it.

Savvy_Sue

chocolatepennyfarthing wrote: »

I’m a minor beneficiary which ever way it goes. The issue is with others who could see significant swings in what they get depending on whether or not the will is valid. It’s a real mess and is causing lots of arguments - and there doesn’t appear to be a clear answer so I guess it will end up going to court.

If it goes to court, there could be very little left for anyone: do you think the affected beneficiaries realise that? so I'm just wondering ...

Keep_pedalling wrote: »

I suspect that there are many such wills out there that are followed without issue because the testator’s family are happy to stick with his or her wishes rather than fight over the spoils.

It doesn't sound as if everyone is happy to go with what the testator seems to have wanted, but is there a 'reasonable compromise' which you, as someone less affected by the whole thing, might be able to broker? Or another neutral party everyone might listen to?

If there is, then a Deed of Variation would be the way to go.

Malthusian

Tom99 wrote: »

Whilst no date might not make the will actually invalid, it can cause all sorts of problems. My brother had a perfectly valid will, but he had not dated it. In order for probate to be granted the two witnesses had to be trace and since these were old work mates, one of whom had moved abroad, it all took some time to sort out.

That makes sense because the Wills Act specifies that the testator and witnesses must be in the room together. As he hadn't dated it, there was no proof of that fact until the witnesses had been traced.

If the OP can trace the two witnesses against all odds then it may save the estate some money, as if both witnesses are breathing and can attest to the validity of the Will (as happened in Tom99's situation), the family members hoping for intestacy may not have a leg to stand on. It may of course still be an expensive process to get to that point.

OP - one question I can't see that has been asked yet - had he made a valid Will before he made this one? If so what does it say? If the new Will is invalid and he made a previous valid Will, then the situation reverts to that one, not intestacy as someone assumed above.